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How do you define evolution?

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
The theory of evolution cannot be verified. No matter how many times you say it, it cannot be substantially verified. If you show that it is verified, please do say, and show.
At least when "science" declares it is better to wear a mask to prevent the spread of covid19, it appears there is proof of the statistical kind to verify that thought. The same goes for the vaccine. Can you let me know the proof of the conjecture that life evolved from one or two celled structures to something larger, bigger in fantastically different form, shape and size, please? Thanks. P.S. - further, you think I ('we') should take the word of "experts"? It doesn't matter. While they can look at genomes and dna, there simply IS no proof that these things evolved from one form or species to another. At least so far (right?) it's not there...or if you think it is, go ahead and say it, show it, and show the proof.

Why do you keep repeating nonsense and asking for information that many people have already given you several times? Yet again science doesn't do absolute proof, but there is copious evidence (and that isn't just looking at similarities and making assumptions).

I have given you evidence (including statistical evidence) both for common decent and the specific case that mutations are what caused the difference between chimps and humans. You just ignored it.

Testing Common Ancestry: It’s All About the Mutations
Common Descent vs. Common Design: 4 Examples Explained Better by Descent (last three examples)
The Evidence For Evolution: A Succinct Introduction For Denialists
Genesis and the Genome (pdf)
Beyond Reasonable Doubt: Evolution from DNA Sequences
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
There are things to be interpreted, or understood. Some things are symbolic and thus with proper understanding can be explained. Anything (similar to science) that cannot be explained now will eventually be straightened out.
I'm sorry but I'm not sure how this answers my question.

Why do you accept every single thing the Bible clams, at face value, without any skepticism or demonstration of the veracity of the claims, while simultaneously rejecting the most well-evidenced scientific theory in existence? That doesn't make sense to me. You have to actually reject demonstrable, observable evidence from multiple different scientific fields (including basic biology) in order to strictly adhere to Biblical claims.


The theory of evolution cannot be verified. No matter how many times you say it, it cannot be substantially verified. If you show that it is verified, please do say, and show. I do not reject the idea that rocks are eons old. Because it makes sense, and because a 'day' as described in Genesis does not always mean a 24-hour period. It means a marked period of time. And let's not go into what time means, same as I guess we can discuss what means alive or not alive.
It has been verified and confirmed, many times over by multiple groups of independent scientists all across the world in multiple different scientific fields over the span of 150+ years. It's the most well-evidenced scientific theory in existence. It's the only scientific theory in town that explains the diversity of life on earth.

You accept the germ theory of disease, right? Guess what? That has less evidence for it than the theory of evolution does. And yet you accept one but not the other. Why??
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why do you keep repeating nonsense and asking for information that many people have already given you several times? Yet again science doesn't do absolute proof, but there is copious evidence (and that isn't just looking at similarities and making assumptions).

I have given you evidence (including statistical evidence) both for common decent and the specific case that mutations are what caused the difference between chimps and humans. You just ignored it.

Testing Common Ancestry: It’s All About the Mutations
Common Descent vs. Common Design: 4 Examples Explained Better by Descent (last three examples)
The Evidence For Evolution: A Succinct Introduction For Denialists
Genesis and the Genome (pdf)
Beyond Reasonable Doubt: Evolution from DNA Sequences
Yes, from what I have seen, evolutionists go by their assumptions of time in reference to cave painting. I doubt you are able to answer my questions since y'all have basically told me you believe what others who you think are experts tell you, so I will refrain from asking questions of you now. Thanks.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm sorry but I'm not sure how this answers my question.

Why do you accept every single thing the Bible clams, at face value, without any skepticism or demonstration of the veracity of the claims, while simultaneously rejecting the most well-evidenced scientific theory in existence? That doesn't make sense to me. You have to actually reject demonstrable, observable evidence from multiple different scientific fields (including basic biology) in order to strictly adhere to Biblical claims.



It has been verified and confirmed, many times over by multiple groups of independent scientists all across the world in multiple different scientific fields over the span of 150+ years. It's the most well-evidenced scientific theory in existence. It's the only scientific theory in town that explains the diversity of life on earth.

You accept the germ theory of disease, right? Guess what? That has less evidence for it than the theory of evolution does. And yet you accept one but not the other. Why??
Hmm less evidence, I see. Ok. Meantime, I believe germs are there, and have effect upon other things, good or bad. I think and be relieve there are many things we don't know. The history of Louis Pasteur and vaccines is very interesting and I hope to look into that. But it is not the theory of evolution.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm sorry but I'm not sure how this answers my question.

Why do you accept every single thing the Bible clams, at face value, without any skepticism or demonstration of the veracity of the claims, while simultaneously rejecting the most well-evidenced scientific theory in existence? That doesn't make sense to me. You have to actually reject demonstrable, observable evidence from multiple different scientific fields (including basic biology) in order to strictly adhere to Biblical claims.



It has been verified and confirmed, many times over by multiple groups of independent scientists all across the world in multiple different scientific fields over the span of 150+ years. It's the most well-evidenced scientific theory in existence. It's the only scientific theory in town that explains the diversity of life on earth.

You accept the germ theory of disease, right? Guess what? That has less evidence for it than the theory of evolution does. And yet you accept one but not the other. Why??
I'm not here to discuss the Bible for several reasons. One is that there are things in the Bible hard to understand. And so I'm not about to have a debate about these things here now. There are certain things self evident and I'm not going to argue them. Perhaps on another thread I can mention some things.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why do you keep repeating nonsense and asking for information that many people have already given you several times? Yet again science doesn't do absolute proof, but there is copious evidence (and that isn't just looking at similarities and making assumptions).

I have given you evidence (including statistical evidence) both for common decent and the specific case that mutations are what caused the difference between chimps and humans. You just ignored it.

Testing Common Ancestry: It’s All About the Mutations
Common Descent vs. Common Design: 4 Examples Explained Better by Descent (last three examples)
The Evidence For Evolution: A Succinct Introduction For Denialists
Genesis and the Genome (pdf)
Beyond Reasonable Doubt: Evolution from DNA Sequences
At least with the germ theory, testing is done, such as vaccines. Where are the tests for evolution? By evolution, please understand I don't mean human interbreeding producing populations with predominantly longer or shorter statures after a while.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
At least with the germ theory, testing is done, such as vaccines. Where are the tests for evolution? By evolution, please understand I don't mean human interbreeding producing populations with predominantly longer or shorter statures after a while.
Are you looking for an evolution injection? Vaccines are not tests. They are an application based on theory, hypotheses, testing and observation. All that is done with evolution too. You have been shown this time and again. You deny it time and again.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Yes, from what I have seen, evolutionists go by their assumptions of time in reference to cave painting. I doubt you are able to answer my questions since y'all have basically told me you believe what others who you think are experts tell you, so I will refrain from asking questions of you now.

I pointed out two ways in which cave paintings were dated in #208. What's more it only took me a few minutes of searching to find out. This is basic stuff you can look up for yourself in the time it takes you to write out your own misunderstanding.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
At least with the germ theory, testing is done, such as vaccines. Where are the tests for evolution? By evolution, please understand I don't mean human interbreeding producing populations with predominantly longer or shorter statures after a while.

If you want to know why do you keep on ignoring the answers you're getting? You've again ignored all the links I gave you that explain some of the evidence and it is gathered and tested.

I've seen lots of people reference lots of direct evidence for evolution after you've asked for it, and you ignore it and just come back and say there is no evidence. I can't imagine what you think you're gaining by that sort of behaviour. What sort of impression do you think it gives people of yourself and your faith?

I even quoted a big chuck of one of the tests, so you wouldn't even have to bother to click on a link. It was here: Who knows about the "Taung child" fossil? and you just ignored it.

Tell you what, here it is again:

One question that comes up frequently about evolutionary biology is whether it really boils down to speculation and assumption. Most of evolution happened in the distant past, after all. We claim that humans and chimpanzees descended from a single ancestral species over millions of years, for example, but none of us was there to observe that process. To a scientist, though, the right question is not, "Were you there?" but rather "What if?" What if we do share a common ancestor–what should we see? How can we test a hypothesis about the ancient past?

One way we can test for shared ancestry with chimpanzees is to look at the genetic differences between the two species. If shared ancestry is true, these differences result from lots of mutations that have accumulated in the two lineages over millions of years. That means they should look like mutations. On the other hand, if humans and chimpanzees appeared by special creation, we would not expect their genetic differences to bear the distinctive signature of descent from a common ancestor.

What do mutations look like, then? DNA consists of a long string of four chemical bases, which we usually call A, C, G and T (for adenine, cytosine, guanine, and thymine). A mutation is any change to that string. In the simplest mutations, one base replaces another when DNA is incorrectly copied or repaired, e.g., a C at a particular site in a chromosome is replaced by a T, which is then passed onto offspring. These substitutions do not all happen at the same rate; some occur more often than others. For example, C and T are chemically similar to one another, as are A and G, and chemically similar bases are more likely to be mistaken for one another when DNA is being copied. Thus, we find an A becoming a G more often than a T.

This means that as they accumulate, mutations create a characteristic pattern of more and less common changes. It is that pattern that we can look for to see if genetic differences were caused by mutations. To determine exactly what the pattern is, we can just look at genetic differences between individual humans, because these represent mutations that occurred since those two people last shared a common ancestor...

...

Now we are in a position to test whether genetic differences between humans and chimps look like mutations. To determine the pattern for mutations, I calculated the rates for the four classes using human diversity data (which is available online). Then I calculated the pattern seen when comparing human and chimpanzee DNA, also using public data. The first graph is the distribution for humans. As expected, transitions are the most common. That pattern is our signature–the sign that mutation has been at work.

picture1.png

picture2.png


The second graph is the same distribution for differences between human and chimpanzee DNA. The overall rates are different–there are 12 times as many differences between human and chimpanzee DNA as there are between DNA from two humans (note the different scale on the y-axis of the graphs)–but the pattern is almost identical.

Remember my opening question: if humans and chimpanzees shared a common ancestor, what should we see? What we should see is what we do see: genetic differences between the species that look exactly like they were produced by mutations. In scientific terms, I had a hypothesis about the distant past, I tested the hypothesis with data, and it passed the test.

Now, when scientists point to similarities between human and chimpanzee DNA, critics sometimes object that similarities don’t really prove anything, since they could be explained equally well by a common design plan: the creator might well use similar stretches of DNA to carry out similar tasks in separately created species. That objection does not apply here, though, because we are looking at the differences between species. I cannot think of any reason why a designer should choose to make the differences look exactly like they were the result of lots of mutations. The obvious conclusion is that things are what they seem: humans and chimpanzees differ genetically in just this pattern because they have diverged from a single common ancestor.

 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes, from what I have seen, evolutionists go by their assumptions of time in reference to cave painting.

No, dating cave paintings is one source of dating, but not the basis of dating human prehistory and evolutionary ancestry. What you lack in your negative attitude is the knowledge in science.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No, dating cave paintings is one source of dating, but not the basis of dating human prehistory and evolutionary ancestry. What you lack in your negative attitude is the knowledge in science.
Cave painting is one source of dating? OK, how are cave paintings analyzed in reference to dating them?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
If you want to know why do you keep on ignoring the answers you're getting? You've again ignored all the links I gave you that explain some of the evidence and it is gathered and tested.

I've seen lots of people reference lots of direct evidence for evolution after you've asked for it, and you ignore it and just come back and say there is no evidence. I can't imagine what you think you're gaining by that sort of behaviour. What sort of impression do you think it gives people of yourself and your faith?

I even quoted a big chuck of one of the tests, so you wouldn't even have to bother to click on a link. It was here: Who knows about the "Taung child" fossil? and you just ignored it.

Tell you what, here it is again:

One question that comes up frequently about evolutionary biology is whether it really boils down to speculation and assumption. Most of evolution happened in the distant past, after all. We claim that humans and chimpanzees descended from a single ancestral species over millions of years, for example, but none of us was there to observe that process. To a scientist, though, the right question is not, "Were you there?" but rather "What if?" What if we do share a common ancestor–what should we see? How can we test a hypothesis about the ancient past?

One way we can test for shared ancestry with chimpanzees is to look at the genetic differences between the two species. If shared ancestry is true, these differences result from lots of mutations that have accumulated in the two lineages over millions of years. That means they should look like mutations. On the other hand, if humans and chimpanzees appeared by special creation, we would not expect their genetic differences to bear the distinctive signature of descent from a common ancestor.

What do mutations look like, then? DNA consists of a long string of four chemical bases, which we usually call A, C, G and T (for adenine, cytosine, guanine, and thymine). A mutation is any change to that string. In the simplest mutations, one base replaces another when DNA is incorrectly copied or repaired, e.g., a C at a particular site in a chromosome is replaced by a T, which is then passed onto offspring. These substitutions do not all happen at the same rate; some occur more often than others. For example, C and T are chemically similar to one another, as are A and G, and chemically similar bases are more likely to be mistaken for one another when DNA is being copied. Thus, we find an A becoming a G more often than a T.

This means that as they accumulate, mutations create a characteristic pattern of more and less common changes. It is that pattern that we can look for to see if genetic differences were caused by mutations. To determine exactly what the pattern is, we can just look at genetic differences between individual humans, because these represent mutations that occurred since those two people last shared a common ancestor...

...

Now we are in a position to test whether genetic differences between humans and chimps look like mutations. To determine the pattern for mutations, I calculated the rates for the four classes using human diversity data (which is available online). Then I calculated the pattern seen when comparing human and chimpanzee DNA, also using public data. The first graph is the distribution for humans. As expected, transitions are the most common. That pattern is our signature–the sign that mutation has been at work.

picture1.png

picture2.png


The second graph is the same distribution for differences between human and chimpanzee DNA. The overall rates are different–there are 12 times as many differences between human and chimpanzee DNA as there are between DNA from two humans (note the different scale on the y-axis of the graphs)–but the pattern is almost identical.

Remember my opening question: if humans and chimpanzees shared a common ancestor, what should we see? What we should see is what we do see: genetic differences between the species that look exactly like they were produced by mutations. In scientific terms, I had a hypothesis about the distant past, I tested the hypothesis with data, and it passed the test.

Now, when scientists point to similarities between human and chimpanzee DNA, critics sometimes object that similarities don’t really prove anything, since they could be explained equally well by a common design plan: the creator might well use similar stretches of DNA to carry out similar tasks in separately created species. That objection does not apply here, though, because we are looking at the differences between species. I cannot think of any reason why a designer should choose to make the differences look exactly like they were the result of lots of mutations. The obvious conclusion is that things are what they seem: humans and chimpanzees differ genetically in just this pattern because they have diverged from a single common ancestor.

I didn't ignore anything, but if you can't answer questions about the links you provide other than telling me those that produced the information are experts, forget it. Meantime, from my research, researchers have found no common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans and gorillas, except they think there must be one. If you have another answer, please do say and explain as you say it, thanks.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Cave painting is one source of dating? OK, how are cave paintings analyzed in reference to dating them?

First, Cave paintings are not the most important way of dating. They are radiometric dated by the charcoal and sometimes materials used. The bones of prey used as food and tools, human remains, and the clay in the soil layers. Potassium/Argon and Carbon 14 dating are the most common. Calcite deposits that form over paintings in limestone caves can also be dated. Also they have developed dating methods for the surface of stone tools. The pictures of animals and bones of extinct animals known to be living at the time also help in dating. Cave sites often have layers of habitation that can be compared. In the sediment deposits in the surrounding ares and the region often contain tools, animal bones that can be comparatively dated, and also dating annual lamella sediment layers in lakes that can be counted.

These comparisons of Neolithic art are made across Africa, Europe and Asia. Also other art work such as carvings in bone, stone and figurines in clay are compared.


Rock (Art) of Ages: Indonesian Cave Paintings Are 40,000 Years Old | Science | Smithsonian Magazine

Rock (Art) of Ages: Indonesian Cave Paintings Are 40,000 Years Old
Cave paintings of animals and hand stencils in Sulawesi, Indonesia, seem to be as old as similar cave art in Europe.

By Helen Thompson
SMITHSONIANMAG.COM
OCTOBER 8, 2014


Modern critics would probably hail the up and coming rock artists that once inhabited Indonesia. About a hundred caves outside Moras, a town in the tropical forests of Sulawesi, were once lined with hand stencils and vibrant murals of abstract pigs and dwarf buffalo. Today only fragments of the artwork remain, and the mysterious artists are long gone.

For now, all we know is when the caves were painted—or at least ballpark dates—and the finding suggests that the practice of lining cave walls with pictures of natural life was common 40,000 years ago. A study published today in Nature suggests that paintings in the Maros-Pangkep caves range from 17,400 to 39,900 years old, close to the age of similar artwork found on the walls of caves in Europe.

“It provides a new view about modern human origins, about when we became cognitively modern,” says Maxime Aubert, an archaeologist at Griffith University in Australia. “It changes the when and the where of our species becoming self-aware and starting to think abstractly, to paint and to carve figurines.”

Swiss naturalists Fritz and Paul Sarasin returned from a scientific expedition to Indonesia between 1905 to 1906 with tales of ancient rock shelters, artifacts and cave paintings, but few specifics. Dutch archaeologist H. R. van Heereken first described the cave paintings around Maros in 1950, and though Indonesian researchers have done significant work in the caves, little has been published on them since.

Work by local scientists describes more recent charcoal drawings that depict domesticated animals and geometric patterns. It also mentions patches of potentially older art in a red, berry-colored paint—probably a form of iron-rich ochre—that adorns cave chamber entrances, ceilings and deep, less accessible rooms. Previous estimates put the Maros cave art at no more than 10,000 years old. “People didn’t believe that cave paintings would last for that long in caves in a tropical environment,” says Aubert.


pras11edit.jpg

A fragmented painting of a pig-deer or babirusa (Babyrousa sp.) and hand stencil from one of the caves in Sulawesi, Indonesia. (Kinez Riza)


For now, all we know is when the caves were painted—or at least ballpark dates—and the finding suggests that the practice of lining cave walls with pictures of natural life was common 40,000 years ago. A study published today in Nature suggests that paintings in the Maros-Pangkep caves range from 17,400 to 39,900 years old, close to the age of similar artwork found on the walls of caves in Europe.



“It provides a new view about modern human origins, about when we became cognitively modern,” says Maxime Aubert, an archaeologist at Griffith University in Australia. “It changes the when and the where of our species becoming self-aware and starting to think abstractly, to paint and to carve figurines.”


Swiss naturalists Fritz and Paul Sarasin returned from a scientific expedition to Indonesia between 1905 to 1906 with tales of ancient rock shelters, artifacts and cave paintings, but few specifics. Dutch archaeologist H. R. van Heereken first described the cave paintings around Maros in 1950, and though Indonesian researchers have done significant work in the caves, little has been published on them since.

Work by local scientists describes more recent charcoal drawings that depict domesticated animals and geometric patterns. It also mentions patches of potentially older art in a red, berry-colored paint—probably a form of iron-rich ochre—that adorns cave chamber entrances, ceilings and deep, less accessible rooms. Previous estimates put the Maros cave art at no more than 10,000 years old. “People didn’t believe that cave paintings would last for that long in caves in a tropical environment,” says Aubert.

Alistair Pike, an archaeologist at the University of Southampton who was not affiliated with the study.

While excavating archaeological remains in the caves, Adam Brumm, a co-author and archaeologist at the University of Wollongong in Australia, noticed “cave popcorn” on some of the artwork. This layer of bumpy calcite would eventually become stalactites and stalagmites millennia down the road, but most importantly it contains uranium—a radioactive substance that can be used to estimate a painting’s age.






 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I didn't ignore anything, but if you can't answer questions about the links you provide other than telling me those that produced the information are experts, forget it. Meantime, from my research, researchers have found no common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans and gorillas, except they think there must be one. If you have another answer, please do say and explain as you say it, thanks.

Your research?!?!?!?! At present you have not exhibited any knowledge nor scientific references to support your assertions based on religious beliefs.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Do you really think scientists are that stupid? I had no idea how cave paintings were dated but it took me just a few minutes to find out that you can use radiocarbon dating if the pigments used are organic (charcoal, for example) or you can use uranium-series dating on calcium carbonate crusts that overly the paintings, so are OBVIOUSLY younger than the paintings.
OK, I dont think scientists are 'that stupid,' but I was recenty looking at a book about magnetism, and wonder how they know these things about electrons going faster or slower, even though they say such things. But they say it, yet I wonder how they know. So I find certain explanations difficult to understand. So -- while I can READ, I also wonder. And then I wonder HOW did it all start? I also wonder what "nothing" is, if there is "nothing" in the universe and etc. I mean how did the electrons get there? They just happened? (Hard to believe that it just happened to happen by some sort of magnetic force without a principle applied by a superior power somehow.) But going back to evolution for a moment, I'll just talk about change of genes, morphing after a looonnnggg time to a different status, such as 4 limbed animals becoming erect and not needing to stand on all fours. Do I believe that it what happened? According to the scientific propossal, that is what they assert happened. But! no one really "knows." After all,no "commion ancestor" is found yet. Not that's integral to the point. Now after I have asked the questions, I think: how did this all come about? Just like that, through what is called nature? And yes--I have concluded that (1) the Bible is not a scientific textbook, and (2) there IS a creator. So maybe I can investigate a few other thoughts as time goes by. Thanks for all the answers, trying to explain to me.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Your research?!?!?!?! At present you have not exhibited any knowledge nor scientific references to support your assertions based on religious beliefs.
Kindly read my last post #256 as a wrap up of my queries. Thanks for offering your answers.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
First, Cave paintings are not the most important way of dating. They are radiometric dated by the charcoal and sometimes materials used. The bones of prey used as food and tools, human remains, and the clay in the soil layers. Potassium/Argon and Carbon 14 dating are the most common. Calcite deposits that form over paintings in limestone caves can also be dated. Also they have developed dating methods for the surface of stone tools. The pictures of animals and bones of extinct animals known to be living at the time also help in dating. Cave sites often have layers of habitation that can be compared. In the sediment deposits in the surrounding ares and the region often contain tools, animal bones that can be comparatively dated, and also dating annual lamella sediment layers in lakes that can be counted.

hmm, well you understand this, I suppose. (?) I do not. And so I bid you adieu. I ask you no more questions. Thanks. :)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
hmm, well you understand this, I suppose. (?) I do not. And so I bid you adieu. I ask you no more questions. Thanks. :)

My post was in high school English with only one or two words you may need a dictionary. Your failure to understand is rooted in your lack of knowledge of science, and a basic unwillingness simply to make an effort to understand science.

The bottomline is no, the dating neolithic and paleolithic humans is not based on dating cave paintings. Yes, dating cave paintings is part of the evidence of the beginnings of paleolithic art forms, which include, carvings, etchings on bone, stone and wood.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Yes, from what I have seen, evolutionists go by their assumptions of time in reference to cave painting. I doubt you are able to answer my questions since y'all have basically told me you believe what others who you think are experts tell you, so I will refrain from asking questions of you now. Thanks.
Why don't you believe what experts in their fields have to say about the evidence?
 
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