Tumah
Veteran Member
I'm sorry, but I don't think I can continue conversing with you.I am sure it is natural to read and skip over points you have already read that does not relate to what you want to say in a reply, right? I try not to remark to everything, because I feel after I re-read what I wrote, I'm just repeating myself.
The reason I said American Sign Language (not sign language) forms concepts is because it is a language rather than gestures. In ASL, we "think" or form concepts by specific shapes of our hands and how we look that is completely different than English. It's a bit closer to French, actually since that's where the language somewhat originated.
We can process ideas by body language. That is exactly what ASL is. That is how it can be conveyed as a complex language rather than a representation of words. I think this is a better example of the mother/baby one. If you are familiar with ASL, it would be somewhat easier to talk about.
Another way concepts formed by body language is by tradition and ritual. When I chant and pray without speaking, I am mentally (for lack of better spiritual words) an idea or definition of a connection between me and the Gohonzon (our object of worship).
Yes, I can think and formulate how the Gohonzon relates to me, and I find it a lot more personal to form those concepts by body language and mind. It let's me know by body language what the Gohonzon means to be beyond the words represented in Chinese, Japanese, and Sanskrit. Concepts takes on a whole new meaning when done in action and tradition. That's my opinion and experience. Not everyone sees it the same way and that does not mean one or the other is wrong.
I can't find which comment this went with. Maybe it's a agree to disagree? It is one thing if it doesn't make sense logically; but if it doesn't make sense via our respective beliefs, I don't know if we can help each other understand unless we can come from our shoes and view it in the other's.
I used God as a proper noun because in English we capitalize God to donate not just a person but an actual being, a creator. I don't know about Judaism, but from a christian perspective, it is treated as a proper noun. god, lower case, is not. Some Christians change the proper use of God to Jehovah. So, it depends on the person.
I didn't use the "father" example because I didn't see how that related to what you said; and, because I don't think it did it wasn't too important to refer to it in our conversation. We usually do that. We read something, see if it connects, and choose to use it in our reply whether we understand it in itself or not.
Okay.
My points are
Since ASL is language, the body language, gestures, and facial expressions do not represent words but are the language they speak or concepts they convey. I mean, we can be technical and say a table represents two arms on top of each other and the top palm patting the elbow. I guess that is fine linguistically. However, in the language itself, that word with others formulates concepts and thereby language.
Back to my original OP point. If I created a concept of god, I can say "god is one" and that would represent who he is. That's not wrong. If I said tried to define god or make an idol representation of him, then that is wrong. I don't understand how, in Judaism, one can talk about god without forming a concept or working language in context for you to do so. By doing so, you're not making an idol, representing god, or defining him. You're just using language to convey messages to get your concept, content, and context to make your point.
If someone asked me "what is your concept of life?" I may say, life is the air we breathe and the earth turning. That's not wrong and I don't see how that could not be allowed if I compared it to Judaism since it's a fact rather than something I created. However, if I defined life by saying, maybe by art or representation, that would be wrong.
The former, I am not making a concept of life. It is what it is without my definition. I'm just conveying what is a fact. That isn't wrong. The latter, I am wrong, because I am conveying the fact/nature of life by my representation of it. I'm just explaining about idolism. I don't understand how one can't be allowed to make a concept of god. It's not your concept. It's just a fact you are conveying by language to another. If it's idolism it's from you; that I can see is wrong.Understand?
Sorry.