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How Do You Believe You bring/make Heaven on Earth.

Which way do you believe we bring Heaven to Earth

  • Mankind's ingenuity, wisdom and knowledge will make heaven on Earth

    Votes: 6 15.8%
  • Mankind through works or his goodness achieves Heaven or oneness with a Presence/power.

    Votes: 8 21.1%
  • God comes to earth and brings Heaven to earth - it is His capacity and not mankind's

    Votes: 8 21.1%
  • There will never be heaven on earth.

    Votes: 16 42.1%

  • Total voters
    38

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Hello :)

This might be too far off topic, but I was recently reading 2 Peter as part of my morning devotional, and was perplexed by 2 Peter 3:11-13.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.​

Do you have any tips about what this means?

In light of this scripture, my answer is #4, at least for now.

Bonus question: does God's Kingdom = Heaven on Earth?

Thanks
Treks
Will touch on this when I have more time... appointments. :)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Hello :)

This might be too far off topic, but I was recently reading 2 Peter as part of my morning devotional, and was perplexed by 2 Peter 3:11-13.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.​

Do you have any tips about what this means?

In light of this scripture, my answer is #4, at least for now.

Bonus question: does God's Kingdom = Heaven on Earth?

Thanks
Treks
Hello Treks. :)

This portion sure is a doozie (did I just date myself? :) )

The reality is that in all the commentaries, they also aren't quite sure of all the details. Is it an imagery? Is it just the earth, sun and moon or are all the planets involved? What are the heavenly bodies? Planets or angels?

Is the fire on the elements of our earthly works? I Cor 3: 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Some hold that it may be works since it talks about living godly lives.

We will probably leave with more questions than answers. We definitely know there will be a new heaven and a new earth as stated in Rev 21: "And I saw a new heaven and an new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

So, as I looked at everything at my disposal, I came up with a definite "maybe"? :D It certainly doesn't say how it will come to pass.

LOL... I'm on the "I will know when it happens--on exactly what and how it will happen" - but just live life for Jesus

As far as the bonus question... I will say "yes." - since we pray "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth.." and Revelation says "

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."





 

stvdv

Veteran Member
We certainly do need to "know the self"!

We hold that the very person of God, the Holy Spirit, lives inside of us and actually give us the wisdom and teaches us how to "know the self" and what to do with "self"
That's why the final Teaching of a true Master will be "kill the Guru/Master"

Note:
a) Kill the Guru should not be taken literally, as they did with Guru Jesus.

It means "give up your last final worldly attachment, being your Guru" IF you "want to be one with God"

b) Some make the mistake to ditch the Guru (principle) before giving up all their other worldly desires, but those act out of illusion and ignorance
@stvdvRF
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That's why the final Teaching of a true Master will be "kill the Guru/Master"

Note:
a) Kill the Guru should not be taken literally, as they did with Guru Jesus.

It means "give up your last final worldly attachment, being your Guru" IF you "want to be one with God"

b) Some make the mistake to ditch the Guru (principle) before giving up all their other worldly desires, but those act out of illusion and ignorance
@stvdvRF
Could you define "worldly"?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Could you define "worldly"?
Worldly attachments, are our desires due to our outer senses, the eye, nose, ear and tongue (has double trouble...taste + speech).

Attachment to the tongue is the hardest to give up (sex too). So, Masters advice to give up attachment to the tongue, because the others will follow once the tongue is mastered

It's not a sin to be attached
But give up is essential for Self Realization
(Path is narrow...this is why)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Worldly attachments, are our desires due to our outer senses, the eye, nose, ear and tongue (has double trouble...taste + speech).

Attachment to the tongue is the hardest to give up (sex too). So, Masters advice to give up attachment to the tongue, because the others will follow once the tongue is mastered

It's not a sin to be attached
But give up is essential for Self Realization
(Path is narrow...this is why)
I just have to mention that I truly love and enjoy the writings of Matthieu Ricard, and he is truly special, imo.

OK, with that, back to the topic at hand.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
You have a hateful spirit. Doesn’t seem like you have found peace in Buddhism which is a religion without a God. Jerry Falwell died 15 years ago but you still are carrying that grudge in addition to others?
This is ironic. I express no hatred, but you seem to feel threatened by my observations critique.

Jerry Falwell was highly influential and his influence is still causing a great deal of problems for social and people in the USA, so he is fair game to reference as we discuss how we manage our society. Falwell was idealistic and intolerant of gays and other things he deemed inappropriate. He helped cause the unification of the Republican party and evangelical Christianity. This has evolved and led to the extremists we see in conservative politics today. Ironically this religious and political extremism has become corrupt and unethical. This is a far divide from what Jesus taught, and what we would recognize as being Christian. Which side do you want to be on?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Worldly attachments, are our desires due to our outer senses, the eye, nose, ear and tongue (has double trouble...taste + speech).

Attachment to the tongue is the hardest to give up (sex too). So, Masters advice to give up attachment to the tongue, because the others will follow once the tongue is mastered

It's not a sin to be attached
But give up is essential for Self Realization
(Path is narrow...this is why)
Interesting.... here we would have a different understanding. We just say we are not "led" by our senses but not that senses are worldly (though they can be if we are not led by God's promptings).

For an example, in my faith, the world was created for the blessing of mankind. The beauty, the tastes et al was for out pleasure with the understanding that pleasure isn't suppose to lead us.

Even the intimacy of the union of a man and a wife is created by God and, in fact, it was a message to mankind for the type of relationship God want with mankind... to be one with mankind
 

idea

Question Everything
I choose:
Mankind's ingenuity, wisdom and knowledge will make heaven on Earth

It is a rush to invent, build, solve - that sensation of accomplishment cannot be given, has to be earned. To me, the largest happiness isn't getting a birthday or Christmas present - the largest happiness are things like graduating after years of work, finishing a successful project, enjoying the deck you built yourself, or even a good meal you cooked yourself. We enjoy creating things for others, service is a joy. It's all more meaningful if we individually sacrifice - rather than everyone living on handouts so-to-speak.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I choose:
Mankind's ingenuity, wisdom and knowledge will make heaven on Earth

It is a rush to invent, build, solve - that sensation of accomplishment cannot be given, has to be earned. To me, the largest happiness isn't getting a birthday or Christmas present - the largest happiness are things like graduating after years of work, finishing a successful project, enjoying the deck you built yourself, or even a good meal you cooked yourself. We enjoy creating things for others, service is a joy. It's all more meaningful if we individually sacrifice - rather than everyone living on handouts so-to-speak.
These are things that we should be doing... and enjoying. Now, if we could get 7 billion people on the same page........... This is why I don't see that as a global possibility.
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
Is it man becoming as gods to make heaven on earth or is it man to through his efforts to become a god or one with a presence, or is it God coming to man to help him make heaven on earth?

Maybe there are other variations?

I chose the God coming down to earth to eventually make heaven on earth. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by the sending of what we call the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world as the answer for the world and its issues.

Looking at the first option where man is a god and that he has the ultimate answer to today societal problems. As I view today, the results of man and his efforts, I don’t see that as a possible answer even over time.

With all the technology, capacity and innovation, I don’t see man as having the answers that man needs. As one need is answered others pop up and the problems continue.

When one answer comes to sickness, another pops up.

I don’t see that really changing over time which is why I don’t subscribe to option one. (Not that you can’t subscribe to it but I just don’t see it.)

The second would be that man through any type of works can achieve godhood or be part of the power or a universal presence. Whether by the denial of earthly desires, trying to be free from attachments, or simply trying to be the best person one can be… it just appears to me that we still come short.

We can maybe enumerate with one hand possible candidates. Buddha, Gandhi, Jesus, and maybe a few others, would be the only ones that perhaps may qualify.

Looking at my life I know I wouldn’t qualify. Of the thousands I have met over my lifetime, I know they wouldn’t qualify.

So I can’t see how “working your way up; denying your way up; reincarnating your way up” – just doesn’t seem like a possibility to me. Earth hasn’t progressed so I don’t see that as a viable option even over time.

Thus, I trust the third way where God comes down and actually lifts us up. Though temporarily we could say “for all the believers in Jesus Christ, the world is still the same”, the ultimate end is that God still comes down and brings Heaven to earth.

Not by works, not by human ingenuity or human capacity, but as a free gift of love.

How do you view it?
Hi Ken S. Good afternoon. All those who love Yahweh can live the Kingdom way of life on this earth by keeping the heaven-sent-Laws, the Biblical Laws, the same of which will be kept in the Kingdom. However ultimately, although mankind feels it can produce it's own solutions to the world's problems, it cannot. Without Yahshua's direction and rule, this world is destined to repeat the same mistakes. Yahweh could raise up righteous leaders, but ultimately, they will die and the people will return back to a life of sin. Such is a lesson found in the Book of Judges. That's why only an eternal ruler with heavenly wisdom will do as the ruler of this earth.

Many times when mankind comes up with their own solutions, and try to achieve an idea of 'peace' on earth, they come up with sets of rules which do not reach Yahweh's high standards of morality. As a result, man will never eradicate suffering. People will always suffer where Yahweh's Law is not being observed. In the Hebrew Scriptures we read of the Tower of Babel that was a huge project for a unified earth, all of which spoke the same language. However, that project was cursed by Yahweh because instead of looking to Yahweh for guidance and direction, they sought to provide for themselves the answer to a potential problem. Why didn't they turn to Yahweh in prayers and ask Him to guide them? Further, they looked to Nimrod as their leader, when Nimrod was not a righteous person. They violated the first of the ten commandments.

When Yahshua returns to this earth, He will be able to enforce the Laws of Yahweh on this earth and none will be able to withstand the power of Yahshua. Many see the Law as a burden, but this is people who don't know Yahweh. Keeping the Law proves that it is not a burden, but a delight. The Kingdom of Yahweh we learn in the Bible will be a earth and heaven renewed. "17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." No more pollution. No more diseases. Rain water will be good to drink. You'll be able to quench your thirst in the rivers. The earth will be incredibly productive also. Amos 9:13-14 " Behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14 And I will bring back the captivity of my people Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them." and "4 Thus saith Yahweh of hosts: There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, every man with his staff in his hand for very age. 5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. 6 Thus saith Yahweh of hosts: If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith Yahweh of hosts."

Further, we know the nature of animals will be changed. You see this sometimes with ferocious animals like bears, tigers or lions sometimes befriending a human being, or another animal like a dog if they grew up with that person or animal from a young age. The animals will have an added knowledge of Yahweh and they won't harm other beings (Isaiah 65:24-25).

I compare this world to 2 Kings 4:39-41. There is death in the pot of this world. There is suffering and evil. But if we turn to Yahweh and accept His Law, taking of His meal, we will be cured of the death that is so evident in the world. Further, Satan the Adversary is real and is causing a lot of problems in the world, trying to get people to sin and transgress Yahweh's Laws. Until Satan is destroyed, we cannot expect to have peace in this world. However, in our own little world, within our families, our lives, we can live the Kingdom way of life now by keeping His Laws, living as if Yahshua were already on this earth ruling. This is what Yahweh desires. When Yahshua returns, those already living the kingdom way of life, those who have overcome in this life, will be well-adjusted and well-prepared for life in the Kingdom of Yahweh.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I went with the first option as we can do nothing on our own. But we do have a part to play,
a hindrance or enabler as in;

Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is error, the truth;
Where there is doubt, the faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
Grant that I may not so much seek
To be consoled, as to console;
To be understood, as to understand;
To be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Hi Ken S. Good afternoon. All those who love Yahweh can live the Kingdom way of life on this earth by keeping the heaven-sent-Laws, the Biblical Laws, the same of which will be kept in the Kingdom. However ultimately, although mankind feels it can produce it's own solutions to the world's problems, it cannot. Without Yahshua's direction and rule, this world is destined to repeat the same mistakes. Yahweh could raise up righteous leaders, but ultimately, they will die and the people will return back to a life of sin. Such is a lesson found in the Book of Judges. That's why only an eternal ruler with heavenly wisdom will do as the ruler of this earth.

Many times when mankind comes up with their own solutions, and try to achieve an idea of 'peace' on earth, they come up with sets of rules which do not reach Yahweh's high standards of morality. As a result, man will never eradicate suffering. People will always suffer where Yahweh's Law is not being observed. In the Hebrew Scriptures we read of the Tower of Babel that was a huge project for a unified earth, all of which spoke the same language. However, that project was cursed by Yahweh because instead of looking to Yahweh for guidance and direction, they sought to provide for themselves the answer to a potential problem. Why didn't they turn to Yahweh in prayers and ask Him to guide them? Further, they looked to Nimrod as their leader, when Nimrod was not a righteous person. They violated the first of the ten commandments.

When Yahshua returns to this earth, He will be able to enforce the Laws of Yahweh on this earth and none will be able to withstand the power of Yahshua. Many see the Law as a burden, but this is people who don't know Yahweh. Keeping the Law proves that it is not a burden, but a delight. The Kingdom of Yahweh we learn in the Bible will be a earth and heaven renewed. "17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." No more pollution. No more diseases. Rain water will be good to drink. You'll be able to quench your thirst in the rivers. The earth will be incredibly productive also. Amos 9:13-14 " Behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14 And I will bring back the captivity of my people Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them." and "4 Thus saith Yahweh of hosts: There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, every man with his staff in his hand for very age. 5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. 6 Thus saith Yahweh of hosts: If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith Yahweh of hosts."

Further, we know the nature of animals will be changed. You see this sometimes with ferocious animals like bears, tigers or lions sometimes befriending a human being, or another animal like a dog if they grew up with that person or animal from a young age. The animals will have an added knowledge of Yahweh and they won't harm other beings (Isaiah 65:24-25).

I compare this world to 2 Kings 4:39-41. There is death in the pot of this world. There is suffering and evil. But if we turn to Yahweh and accept His Law, taking of His meal, we will be cured of the death that is so evident in the world. Further, Satan the Adversary is real and is causing a lot of problems in the world, trying to get people to sin and transgress Yahweh's Laws. Until Satan is destroyed, we cannot expect to have peace in this world. However, in our own little world, within our families, our lives, we can live the Kingdom way of life now by keeping His Laws, living as if Yahshua were already on this earth ruling. This is what Yahweh desires. When Yahshua returns, those already living the kingdom way of life, those who have overcome in this life, will be well-adjusted and well-prepared for life in the Kingdom of Yahweh.
love it!
 

Goldemar

A queer sort
Is it man becoming as gods to make heaven on earth or is it man to through his efforts to become a god or one with a presence, or is it God coming to man to help him make heaven on earth?

Maybe there are other variations?

I chose the God coming down to earth to eventually make heaven on earth. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by the sending of what we call the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world as the answer for the world and its issues.

Looking at the first option where man is a god and that he has the ultimate answer to today societal problems. As I view today, the results of man and his efforts, I don’t see that as a possible answer even over time.

With all the technology, capacity and innovation, I don’t see man as having the answers that man needs. As one need is answered others pop up and the problems continue.

When one answer comes to sickness, another pops up.

I don’t see that really changing over time which is why I don’t subscribe to option one. (Not that you can’t subscribe to it but I just don’t see it.)

The second would be that man through any type of works can achieve godhood or be part of the power or a universal presence. Whether by the denial of earthly desires, trying to be free from attachments, or simply trying to be the best person one can be… it just appears to me that we still come short.

We can maybe enumerate with one hand possible candidates. Buddha, Gandhi, Jesus, and maybe a few others, would be the only ones that perhaps may qualify.

Looking at my life I know I wouldn’t qualify. Of the thousands I have met over my lifetime, I know they wouldn’t qualify.

So I can’t see how “working your way up; denying your way up; reincarnating your way up” – just doesn’t seem like a possibility to me. Earth hasn’t progressed so I don’t see that as a viable option even over time.

Thus, I trust the third way where God comes down and actually lifts us up. Though temporarily we could say “for all the believers in Jesus Christ, the world is still the same”, the ultimate end is that God still comes down and brings Heaven to earth.

Not by works, not by human ingenuity or human capacity, but as a free gift of love.

How do you view it?

Since I believe that Heaven is with a God outside of the material world that Earth represents and this material world is the creation of a lower, evil god who has trapped human souls in it, and the goal of our lives is to set ourselves free from this world and return to the God outside the material world Who is the Creator of our souls, I don't believe Heaven can be created or is to be found on Earth.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Is it man becoming as gods to make heaven on earth or is it man to through his efforts to become a god or one with a presence, or is it God coming to man to help him make heaven on earth?

Maybe there are other variations?

I chose the God coming down to earth to eventually make heaven on earth. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by the sending of what we call the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world as the answer for the world and its issues.

Looking at the first option where man is a god and that he has the ultimate answer to today societal problems. As I view today, the results of man and his efforts, I don’t see that as a possible answer even over time.

With all the technology, capacity and innovation, I don’t see man as having the answers that man needs. As one need is answered others pop up and the problems continue.

When one answer comes to sickness, another pops up.

I don’t see that really changing over time which is why I don’t subscribe to option one. (Not that you can’t subscribe to it but I just don’t see it.)

The second would be that man through any type of works can achieve godhood or be part of the power or a universal presence. Whether by the denial of earthly desires, trying to be free from attachments, or simply trying to be the best person one can be… it just appears to me that we still come short.

We can maybe enumerate with one hand possible candidates. Buddha, Gandhi, Jesus, and maybe a few others, would be the only ones that perhaps may qualify.

Looking at my life I know I wouldn’t qualify. Of the thousands I have met over my lifetime, I know they wouldn’t qualify.

So I can’t see how “working your way up; denying your way up; reincarnating your way up” – just doesn’t seem like a possibility to me. Earth hasn’t progressed so I don’t see that as a viable option even over time.

Thus, I trust the third way where God comes down and actually lifts us up. Though temporarily we could say “for all the believers in Jesus Christ, the world is still the same”, the ultimate end is that God still comes down and brings Heaven to earth.

Not by works, not by human ingenuity or human capacity, but as a free gift of love.

How do you view it?

We can’t do it alone. We do need God, however we are in need of doing our best and trying to be as ready as we can be. Our technology, kindness etc can all help.
 

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
Loaded questions it seems. What is heaven? What would it look like on earth and who's responsible?

We are
How we want it to
We are

My view is to thine own self be true, don't step on too many toes, and it'll work itself out in time by living honestly. Struggles come and go - so do times of calm and peace. That's life. When truth and light overcomes darkness and deceit well get to where we're going the right way - through the righteous act of the saints. An atheist can be considered a Saint also. It's about us and truth and learning to work things out. Right/true, righteous/truthful righteousness/truthfulness. The spirit of truth is called holy for a reason.
 
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PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
I voted #2.

Where there is love in our hearts there ALREADY IS heaven on earth. I don't know if it's possible as a global, constant and lasting thing but it's nevertheless a worthy goal.

"A goal is not always meant to be reached, it often serves simply as something to aim at." (Bruce Lee)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Is it man becoming as gods to make heaven on earth or is it man to through his efforts to become a god or one with a presence, or is it God coming to man to help him make heaven on earth?

Maybe there are other variations?

I chose the God coming down to earth to eventually make heaven on earth. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by the sending of what we call the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world as the answer for the world and its issues.

Looking at the first option where man is a god and that he has the ultimate answer to today societal problems. As I view today, the results of man and his efforts, I don’t see that as a possible answer even over time.

With all the technology, capacity and innovation, I don’t see man as having the answers that man needs. As one need is answered others pop up and the problems continue.

When one answer comes to sickness, another pops up.

I don’t see that really changing over time which is why I don’t subscribe to option one. (Not that you can’t subscribe to it but I just don’t see it.)

The second would be that man through any type of works can achieve godhood or be part of the power or a universal presence. Whether by the denial of earthly desires, trying to be free from attachments, or simply trying to be the best person one can be… it just appears to me that we still come short.

We can maybe enumerate with one hand possible candidates. Buddha, Gandhi, Jesus, and maybe a few others, would be the only ones that perhaps may qualify.

Looking at my life I know I wouldn’t qualify. Of the thousands I have met over my lifetime, I know they wouldn’t qualify.

So I can’t see how “working your way up; denying your way up; reincarnating your way up” – just doesn’t seem like a possibility to me. Earth hasn’t progressed so I don’t see that as a viable option even over time.

Thus, I trust the third way where God comes down and actually lifts us up. Though temporarily we could say “for all the believers in Jesus Christ, the world is still the same”, the ultimate end is that God still comes down and brings Heaven to earth.

Not by works, not by human ingenuity or human capacity, but as a free gift of love.

How do you view it?
In Judaism, we speak of Tikkun Olam, the repair of the earth. We look for injustices we can correct, and suffering that we can alleviate. This is why Judaism is so connected to the civil rights movement. It is why there are Jewish hospitals.

Think of it as restoring the world to Eden. Men were cursed to toil the ground, and so we develop machinery to make give ease to that. Women have pain in childbirth, and so we have epidurals and stuff. Men have lorded it over their wives, and so we create movements to give women equality. We bring back the garden.
 
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