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Featured How do you become a Christian according to the Bible?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by CohenDavidson, Feb 18, 2018.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    First of all, this is my last post on this with you as you're posting certainty in an uncertain arena, along with your condescending tone.

    I've read literally a couple hundred theology books over the years, and most simply do not agree with you. One simply cannot draw a line in the sand and say X started here when there's previous continuity involved. No doubt that the post 70 c.e. church began moving further away from normative Judaism, especially after the destruction of the Temple and the diasporah that brought in more gentiles to the fold.

    There is as we see a division of power within the ranks, such as Judas being the treasurer. If James had the power you claim he did, then why would Paul be confronting Peter? And also why did Peter's vision on ignoring the Kosher Laws become the norm? And why did Jesus tell Peter to "feed my sheep..."?

    Your sentences above contradict each another.

    What you say is correct in that the movement was indeed a Jewish movement, however, to distinguish itself from normative Judaism, the earliest title that we know of is "the Way", probably from Jesus saying "I am the way, the truth, and the life...". "Christian" didn't get used for the movement until the early 2nd century, and most scholars that I have read believe whereas when it's used in Acts, that it was used as an insult.

    Hogwash. I've read the gospels through many times over, so your condescension here leads me to walk away from this conversation.

    So, they just ignored what Jesus taught? Not likely, imo. However, there's no doubt that Paul and the others went well beyond what Jesus taught as a probably application of where they believed Jesus was coming from. The idea that they would walk away from the Law without something Jesus must have said is so completely illogical. He was their leader. He was viewed as being more important than the prophets. He had to say something to open that door, and I believe that it's his emphasis on "he law of love", versus following the literalness of the Law, was likely the reason.

    It's the likely reason why N.T. verses on the Law as found in the gospels seem almost schizophrenic, with some reaffirming the Law and some opposing it. IOW, it seems to me to be Jesus' very liberal take on the Law, which to a limited extent parallels Hillel's.

    Take care, but I'm fini.
     
  2. Baroodi

    Baroodi Active Member

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    what about drinking alcohol in the past and now? is it prohibited by the bible or not prohibited?
     
  3. CohenDavidson

    CohenDavidson Member

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    You see a great deal of controversy on this topic. The new testament condemns this without a doubt. It is a sin. In the Old Testament as well we see the idea of alcohol us as being destructive. Solomon said to not even look at it because it is so enticing. Noah was ridiculed by his children when he became drunk... etc. We can see the fruits of alcoholism today. 88,000 people die every year due to alcohol. 50% of murder is related to alcohol in some way. Alcohol is involved with the majority of fatal incidences when it comes to motorized vehicles. Yes, the use of alcohol is deemed as a sin. Use as a medicine is not however. 1 Timothy 5:23
     
  4. Apologetics

    Apologetics Member

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    The new covenant is clearly unequivocally mentioned in the old testament

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people

    The old covenant that was replaced entailed Sacrifices,Rituals and ceremonies. Notice how in the new Covenant
    God says he will put his law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. Thats the moral code the 10 commandments not the sacrifices,rituals and ceremonies. They were done away with, for Christ was the fulfillment of those. Math 5:17 Example the Passover feast was a picture, a shadow of a future event . That event recognized by John the baptist John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world. John the baptist recognizing that the picture set forth in the Passover was about to be fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth the Son of God

    So we do have the new covenant foretold by Jeremiah 31:31
    And we do have Jesus acknowledging the new Covenant Luke 22:20

    The Hebrew writer was simply quoting old testament Prophets recognizing their fulfillment in his day Heb 8:8
     
  5. Apologetics

    Apologetics Member

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    .


    fallingblood said:

    Jesus never says that his death was a point of a new covenant. That is someone writing after the fact, that claims Jesus's death was a new covenant. Someone who we don't know. Someone who's book nearly got thrown out of the canon. The mention of a new covenant is only post Jesus. Jesus states the opposite, that the Law, which was a symbol of the covenant, would not pass away.


    So Acts does mention that later on, people who followed the movement were called Christian. But that wasn't Christianity. The name Christian preceded the actual religion. When we look at the topic historically, we can see Christianity emerging after the fall of the Temple in 70 C.E. Before that, we know people like Paul saw it as just Judaism. He's literally taking it from the OT prophets, where it said all nations would bow before God in the end days. The understanding is that the Jewish message would pass onto them.


    As for listening to what Jesus says in Matthew, he does state that the gospel is for all. He's just repeating what OT prophets said. But he doesn't simply say that. Jesus also states that not a single iota of the law should pass until the heavens pass. And that those who follow him should follow that Law. As in, he's talking to Jews (which he literally was). The message for others would be, if you're going to follow me, you have to follow the Law.


    What Jesus says isn't what Paul says, or what Hebrew says. To confuse them all for the same word just doesn't work
    .




    The new covenant is clearly unequivocally mentioned in the old testament


    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people


    The old covenant that was replaced entailed Sacrifices,Rituals and ceremonies. Notice how in the new Covenant

    God says he will put his law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. Thats the moral code the 10 commandments not the sacrifices,rituals and ceremonies. They were done away with, They were pictures of future events, Christs sacrifice being one of those foretold future events being fulfilled. Math 5:17 Example the Passover feast was a picture, a shadow of a future event . That event recognized by John the baptist John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world. John the baptist recognizing that the picture set forth in the Passover was about to be fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth the Son of God

    So we do have the new covenant foretold by Jeremiah 31:31

    And we do have Jesus acknowledging the new Covenant Luke 22:20



    The Hebrew writer was simply quoting old testament Prophets recognizing their fulfillment in his day Heb 8:8
     
  6. CohenDavidson

    CohenDavidson Member

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    Well put! The only thing... were not exactly under the 10 commandment. We know 9/10 are still sin today, however keeping the Sabbath holy is not. The Sabbath is the 7th day of the week... Acts 20:7 states that the first day of the week is when worship is to take place!
     
  7. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    Here's the problem. You never dealt with Matthew. You jumped to what John wrote and then what Paul wrote. By the time Paul was writing, Jesus was dead. Paul never met Jesus and there is no evidence that what Paul was saying came from Jesus. To combine them all as if they were one written record simply doesn't work, unless you're writing a new narrative.

    A lot of things are mentioned in the Old Testament. The Law is mentioned in the Old Testament.
    Doesn't say anything about Jesus, or the Jesus movement, or the Messiah. To state this is what Jesus was talking about, when it is never mentioned, simply is making up a new narrative.
    Not really. The old covenant was based on Love. You followed the Law because you love God. It really is as simple as that.

    So, I will agree that various portions of the Bible say different things. The issue here is that Matthew is very clear that the old covenant, the Law itself, wouldn't be abolished or changed in anyway. So yes, you can find other books that say different things, and that's really the issue here.
    If I have come off as condescending, that really isn't my intention. I do have a tendency to speak matter of factly, which is often tactless. As for posting certainty in an uncertain arena, that's basically what a debate of any type is. You've been doing it as well.
    There is a different between theological work on the subject, and historical work. I can tell you for certain that the consensus is that the early church began, from a historical perspective, after the fall of the Temple in 70 C.E. This is in conjunction with Christianity becoming its own religion. I say this is the consensus in mainstream scholarship as that's what is being taught in colleges, and is the view that is proposed by the leaders in the field. Theologically, that could be different, as they are looking at different issues.
    There might be a division of power, but that doesn't mean that the spiritual leader and political leader were seen as different individuals. It simply means that they delegated to others. Why would Paul be confronting Peter? Peter was guilty of the misconduct in Paul's eye. Why did Peter's vision of ignoring the Kosher Laws become the norm? Who says it became the norm? It may have become the norm in Paul's churches, but even then that's iffy as Paul tells his followers to still keep the Kosher Laws if it causes problems with others. And we have no idea what the norm in the Jewish sect was. We simply know what Paul said, and he wasn't the norm. As for Jesus saying feed my sheep, you can feed sheep with the Kosher Law.

    I don't see a contradiction. I state we know virtually nothing with some exceptions. Thats not a contradiction. During the 1st century, there was no normative Judaism, so there would have been no reason to distinguish oneself or one's group from that.

    I'm not saying you don't know the Gospels. What I'm saying is that your argument relied on assumptions of what Jesus may have said. You state, for instance, "what Jesus taught must have led up to these changes vis-a-vis the Law." Yet there was nothing in the Gospels showing that Jesus suggested what you were saying. You made an implication based on what later people did, assuming that they in no way would have disagreed with Jesus. But you can't make that assumption, as we know for sure that later leaders ignored or disagreed with Jesus. Paul even does so.

    Why wouldn't they disagree with Jesus. He was only seen as more important than the prophets later on. He was only seen as godly later on. In the first century, there isn't evidence that he was seen as the final word. Paul even disagrees with Jesus, for instance, on divorce. It's one of the only places that Paul quotes Jesus, but he then disagrees with Jesus. So yes, they would have ignored what Jesus taught, or disagreed with him. We have evidence of that.

    Hilel wasn't liberal when it came to the law. He was simply, as Jesus did, repeating a basic Jewish concept that can be found in the OT. The reason the NT seems schizophrenic (which I don't think is the correct term here) is because it was written by a variety of different authors with different views.
     
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I'm gonna keep this very brief.

    His vision of the blanket and declaring that all foods are "clean". It became the norm for the Twelve, although not the Ebionites.

    Hillel had taken a much more liberal position that the Shammai camp, however, he was not as liberal as the Jesus camp.

    I gotta go, so take care.
     
  9. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    We have no idea if it became the norm for the 12, as such is never mentioned. We don't even know if the 12 continued after Jesus died.

    And Jesus didn't really declare all foods clean. The issue, as seen in Mark, arose because his disciples were seen eating with uncleaned hands. That was the issue. So what's in question is really in regards to the oral law, in particular, a purity issue in regards to eating, not with the actual food itself. He doesn't deal with food law, or anything in the OT. He's dealing with a ceremonial practice that had largely become standard during that time, that was found in the Oral Torah (we can find it in the Mishna).

    Now, we know that Jesus did not teach that the kosher laws were no more anyway. We can know this by looking at Acts. Acts 10 tells us of a vision Peter has, and his response is no Lord, I've never eaten anything unclean. He later realized that the vision meant that he shouldn't call any man or common, or unclean, and thus from there, the message was spread to the Gentiles. The fact that Peter reacts in such a way, as in denying that he has eaten anything unclean, shows us that Jesus never said all food was clean.
    Hillel may have been a bit more liberal, but being more liberal than a very conservative group doesn't make one liberal when it comes to the Law. It just means they see it differently.

    We don't know how liberal Jesus was. I would argue that he may have been very strict. He talks about the law, such as not committing adultery, but for him, even if you lust for a woman in your heart, you're guilty. He looks at the Law pertaining to divorce, and says no, divorce is never okay. In Matthew, he is incredibly strict.
     
  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Mark.7[19] since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

    Luke.11[41] But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you.

    Acts.10[9]The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour.
    [10] And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance
    [11] and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth.
    [12] In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air.
    [13] And there came a voice to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat."
    [14] But Peter said, "No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean."
    [15] And the voice came to him again a second time, "What God has cleansed, you must not call common."
    [16] This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
     
    #90 metis, Feb 28, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  11. CohenDavidson

    CohenDavidson Member

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    Addressing what you said about Paul... the Bible tells us in Acts 8 that Paul met Jesus in a vision on the road to Damascus... The old law was not just about love. Here is just a few laws and statutes given under the Law of Moses. This is just a few of over 600 laws and statutes...


    RITUAL PURITY

    96
    Leviticus 11:8 - Defilement by touching certain animal carcasses, and...
    Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.
    97 Leviticus 11:29 - ...by touching carcasses of eight creeping creatures.
    These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,
    98 Leviticus 11:34 - Defilement of food and drink, if contacting unclean thing.
    Of all meat which may be eaten, that on which such water cometh shall be unclean: and all drink that may be drunk in every such vessel shall be unclean.
    99 Leviticus 15:19 - On Tumah (unclean) of a menstruant woman.
    And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
    100 Leviticus 12:2 - On Tumah (unclean) of a woman after childbirth.
    Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child, then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
    101 Leviticus 13:3 - On Tumah (unclean) of a leper.
    And the priest shall look on the plague in the skin of the flesh: and when the hair in the plague is turned white, and the plague in sight be deeper than the skin of his flesh, it is a plague of leprosy: and the priest shall look on him, and pronounce him unclean.
    102 Leviticus 13:51 - On garments contaminated by leprosy.
    And he shall look on the plague on the seventh day: if the plague be spread in the garment, either in the warp, or in the woof, or in a skin, or in any work that is made of skin; the plague is a fretting leprosy; it is unclean.
    103 Leviticus 14:44 - On a leprous house.
    Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house: it is unclean.
    104 Leviticus 15:2 - On Tumah (unclean) of a zav (man with a running issue).
    Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean.
    105 Leviticus 15:6 - On Tumah (unclean) of semen.
    And he that sitteth on any thing whereon he sat that hath the issue shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
    106 Leviticus 15:19 - Tumah (unclean) of a zavah (woman suffering from a running issue).
    And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
    107 Numbers 19:14 - On Tumah (unclean) of a human corpse.
    This is the law, when a man dieth in a tent: all that come into the tent, and all that is in the tent, shall be unclean seven days.
    108 Numbers 19:13 - Law of the purification water of sprinkling, mei niddah.
    Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.
    109 Leviticus 15:16 - On immersing in a mikveh to become ritually clean.
    And if any mans seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even.
    110 Leviticus 14:2 - On the specified procedure of cleansing from leprosy.
    This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest:
    111 Leviticus 14:9 - On that a leper must shave his head.
    But it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off: and he shall wash his clothes, also he shall wash his flesh in water, and he shall be clean.
    112 Leviticus 13:45 - On that the leper must be made easily distinguishable.
    And the leper in whom the plague is, his clothes shall be rent, and his head bare, and he shall put a covering upon his upper lip, and shall cry, Unclean, unclean.
    113 Numbers 19:2 - On Ashes of the Red Heifer, used in ritual purification.
    This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

    DONATIONS TO THE TEMPLE

    114
    Leviticus 27:2 - On the valuation for a person himself to the Temple.
    Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons shall be for the Lord by thy estimation.
    115 Leviticus 27:11 - On the valuation for an unclean beast to the Temple.
    And if it be any unclean beast, of which they do not offer a sacrifice unto the Lord, then he shall present the beast before the priest:
    116 Leviticus 27:14 - On the valuation of a house as a donation to the Temple.
    And when a man shall sanctify his house to be holy unto the Lord, then the priest shall estimate it, whether it be good or bad: as the priest shall estimate it, so shall it stand.
    117 Leviticus 27:16 - On the valuation of a field as a donation to the Temple.
    And if a man shall sanctify unto the Lord some part of a field of his possession, then thy estimation shall be according to the seed thereof: an homer of barley seed shall be valued at fifty shekels of silver.
    118 Leviticus 5:16 - If benefit from Temple property, restitution plus 1/5th.
    And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
    119 Leviticus 19:24 - On the fruits of the trees fourth year's growth.
    But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the Lord withal.
    120 Leviticus 19:9 - On leaving the corners (Peah) of fields for the poor.
    And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
    121 Leviticus 19:9 - On leaving gleanings of the field for the poor.
    And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
    122 Deuteronomy 24:19 - On leaving the forgotten sheaf for the poor.
    When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.
    123 Leviticus 19:10 - On leaving the misformed grape clusters for the poor.
    And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God.
    124 Leviticus 19:10 - On leaving grape gleanings for the poor.
    And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God.
    125 Exodus 23:19 - On separating and bringing First-fruits to the Sanctuary.
    The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mothers milk.
    126 Deuteronomy 18:4 - To separate the great Heave-offering (terumah).
    The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.
    127 Deuteronomy 14:29 - To set aside the first tithe to the Levites.
    And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
    128 Deuteronomy 14:22 - To set aside the second tithe, eaten only in Jerusalem.
    Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
    129 Numbers 18:26 - On Levites' giving tenth of their tithe to the Cohanim (High Priests).
    Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, even a tenth part of the tithe.
    130 Deuteronomy 14:28 - To set aside the poor-man's tithe in 3rd and 6th year.
    At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
    131 Deuteronomy 26:13 - A declaration made when separating the various tithes.
    Then thou shalt say before the Lord thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them:
    132 Deuteronomy 26:2 - A declaration made bringing First-fruits to the Temple.
    That thou shalt take of the first of all the fruit of the earth, which thou shalt bring of thy land that the Lord thy God giveth thee, and shalt put it in a basket, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose to place his name there.
    133 Numbers 15:20 - On the first portion of the Challah given to the Cohen (Priest).
    Ye shall offer up a cake of the first of your dough for an heave offering: as ye do the heave offering of the threshingfloor, so shall ye heave it.

     
  12. RedDragon94

    RedDragon94 Love everyone, meditate often

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    Turn from sin to Christ. Yes.
     
  13. Apologetics

    Apologetics Member

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    You respond to the following:

    God says he will put his law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. Thats the moral code the 10 commandments not the sacrifices,rituals and ceremonies. They were done away with, They were pictures of future events, Christs sacrifice being one of those foretold future events being fulfilled. Math 5:17 Example the Passover feast was a picture, a shadow of a future event . That event recognized by John the baptist John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world. John the baptist recognizing that the picture set forth in the Passover was about to be fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth the Son of God

    So we do have the new covenant foretold by Jeremiah 31:31

    And we do have Jesus acknowledging the new Covenant Luke 22:20

    The Hebrew writer was simply quoting old testament Prophets recognizing their fulfillment in his day Heb 8:8

    You said: Doesn't say anything about Jesus, or the Jesus movement, or the Messiah. To state this is what Jesus was talking about, when it is never mentioned, simply is making up a new narrative.

    My responce:

    Okay
    Jer 31:31 You acknowledge It prophecies a new covenant . Jer 23:5 Prophecies The righteous Branch a King would come from David who would bring Peace to Israel and execute justice and Judgement in the earth. He shall be called the Lord our righteousness. Luke 1:32 Gabriel mentions the same king the "Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end, called the Son of the Highest named Jesus John 18:37 Jesus Acknowledges to Pilot he is a King Luke 22:20 Jesus acknowledges the new covenant. This cup is the new covenant in My blood Jesus was fully aware that he was fulfilling Jer 31:31 Initiating that new covenant Jeremiah spoke off.

    Thats the apostles and prophets Narrative. Its their doctrine. Their words not mine. Ive just put it all together for you..

     
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