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how do Protestants explain history?

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Basically Protestantism didn't exists for over 1500 year after Jesus how can they believe it is the true Christian faith when there is no archeological or historical evidence for their belief system

Thanks
Protestantism did not exist for all those centuries, but Christianity did. As the centuries passed, the pagan and secular aspects of Roman Catholic beliefs, policies, and traditions became unendurable to people like Martin Luther.
Therefore, the Protestant Reformation came to happen. It may not have been so ugly and wrenching if the Catholic hierarchy hadn't been so worldly and entrenched politically.
Tom
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Protestantism did not exist for all those centuries, but Christianity did.
The church always considered itself as being "one body", to use Paul's words, and Acts plus some of the epistles indicate a process of the handing down of authority that eventually was called "apostolic succession". Even Luther recognized this historical fact. The Copts, Orthodox, and Anglicans recognize this as well and are considered as being part of that process that was disrupted and eventually fragmented due to political disputes.

As the centuries passed, the pagan and secular aspects of Roman Catholic beliefs, policies, and traditions became unendurable to people like Martin Luther.
Luther had more than his fair share of problems, with one of them being acute problems with constipation (true). Yes, he did correctly cite many of the problems found within the leadership and demands of the leadership, no doubt, but even with his 95 Thesis he merely asked that some of the theological stuff be discussed openly. When that was done, he actually didn't fare that well. At the end of his life, he died a fairly depressed man as he felt he had created some insurmountable problems.

Funny that when I grew up in the Lutheran church I was not told most of this stuff but ended up reading a couple of biographies on him when doing my undergraduate studies. I can sympathize with him at times, but he also had some real serious personal "issues" that sometimes got the better of him.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Pick one of the 38,000+ competing groups that call them self Protestants and tell me

Not all denominations refer to themselves as protestant or came about due to the reformation. What I was getting at was the wide range of beliefs among the many different denominations. For example, the Mormon church (LDS) would have a different point of view than say a Pentecostal church, who in turn would have a different point of view than say the Methodist. There are too wide a range of beliefs to dump them all in the same category. Not to mention the fact that there were Christians before Catholicism came into being.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not to mention the fact that there were Christians before Catholicism came into being.
Well, that depends. The title of "catholic" (note lower case) was at first used as a descriptor ("universal") in the mid-2nd century along with another descriptor "orthodox" ("truth"), but by the end of that century "Catholic" became a synonymous title with "Christian", the latter actually believed to have been an insulting term for the church when first used (shows up in Acts).

All other independent churches that gradually sprouted up were labeled as being heretical, largely because they typically had other doctrines and other books that they were using.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Isn't it rather weird that this theologically "far-out" Jew is here defending Catholicism. :emojconfused:

Anyhow, gotta go for this evening, so please be kind to this wacko, OK?
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
And vice-versa. Have you ever studied the history of Protestantism? Yes, there were problems, including many very serious problems, throughout the history of the CC, and many of those were made by their own doing. But let me remind you that not only did much the same happen within Protestantism, but also even the apostles were hardly stellar at times-- Peter's denial, Thomas' doubting, Judas' betrayal, arguments between them, ...

Religious institutions were not built for perfect people because perfect people wouldn't need such facilities-- they were built for us flawed people.
Truth. I did not mean to represent protestants as angelic, and I have not deeply studied its History on my own. I have read parts of various books. The protestants certainly did inherit a lot of anger and distress, and they stung themselves like scorpions trying to find out what went wrong in their original church. In my opinion protestants are representative of Roman Catholics, very much the same, although Roman Catholics often have (but do not always have) a more catholic understanding. What I point out is that things got so bad in the official organization that people were desperate. Some stayed to try and change things, and some left convinced that they could not. Protestants were desperate and felt they were driven out by a hierarchy that would not listen or confess.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
God directed Peter and the apostles directly not Luther those apostles appointed others who appointed others and so on

Not all protestants are luthern-oriented. History doesnt define god.

JW is Far far far *cough* from what Lutheran taught which was just a step below Roman Catholicism in regards to the Eucharist. I think Id venture tonsay they are one of the few cloest protestant denominations I actually would agree with.

I think Lutheran's brother killed Luther as a result of their disagreement with Church teaching. Couple other sad, Ill say, things happen by The Church. Catholicism is NOT Roman its supposed to be succeeded by Jewish teachings from the apostles and them Christ. Hence why the Catholic Church split.

Plus, Peter is not the head of the Church (he is not god). So, the political role model the Church makes Peter to be is saying that Peter can "speak for" christ.

Protestants are against anyone speaking for christ in a divine level or ex ecartha. There are differences.

History doesnt make god. I thought god made history.

Least how I was taught -by The Church.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
I presume Adamski is talking about apostolic succession - which is what gives "legitimacy" to the Papal office. I don't see this as a particular problem except that it depends on the "paternal" leadership of a bunch of old farts in frocks who weren't even allowed to be "paters". Metis has correctly pointed out that the Anglican Church also professes apostolic succession (and, as it happens, the wearing of frocks - but at least they are allowed to be "fathers" if they want to, they just don't call them that...) - one of the pre-eminent "defenders" of that faith during Adamski's "missing years" having been Henry VIII who wanted to take the profoundly immoral step of divorcing (rather than the much kinder option of beheading) his wife, but the Pope, having clearly lost the apostolic plot, said "no". So much for the historical legitimacy of the "Church" in all its diversified "holy, catholic and apostolic" glory!

I think I would echo several people's suggestion at this point and ask everyone to go and read some books.
 
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Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
It is clearly needed look at he Protestant chaos 38,000+ competing denominations all with different beliefs

God directed Peter and the apostles directly not Luther those apostles appointed others who appointed others and so on

Basically what you have shown me is Protestants can't explain history

Before I even being (and I have no idea why I am bothering) I have some questions for you:

1. Do you believe that you will go to heaven when you die (after Purgatory since you are Catholic)?
2. Do you believe in Satan?
3. Do you believe in demons?
4. Do you believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment for those who are not saved?
5. Do you believe that Earth is the center of creation?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Luther never claimed to have that authority he said the bible did[,]
To your knowledge he never claimed he had any mandate from god for his "belief system," but maybe he did. It is a possibility isn't it? And what is the mandate you evidently feel the Catholic Church is following?

Thing is, the Catholic Church may have taken the ball and run with it, but maybe it wasn't running in the right direction. I'm sure you know that first doesn't necessary mean right. Perhaps Christianity as practiced by the Catholic Church needed the correction that Luther put into motion. :shrug:

jeuss never said to read his book
"His" book"? The New Testament wasn't constructed until long after Jesus was dead.So I fail to see how he could have said it.

he said to follow the church he started
Just where does Jesus say to follow the "church he started"?


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