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How do Creationist Explain This?

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Creationists tend not to understand what macroevolution is and that It has been directly observed.

Macroevolution is the result of microevolution happening over a long period of time.

Small changes in the gene pool of a species over time resulting in relatively small changes to the organisms in the population is defined as microevolution.

Macroevolution occurs when there'd be significant enough gene pool changes within a species changing over the course of many generations resulting in organisms having genetic traits different enough from their distant ancestors; so that there'd be no possible sexual reproduction occurring between somebody who were to have distant ancestral genetic traits with anybody living in the current population.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Did you ever hear of the Non Sequitur Show?

Even I found out just how ignorant I was on evolution myself until I came across this Aron Ra and Kent Hovind debate. I came away a hell of a lot more knowledgeable of evolution than I ever was prior to viewing the debate and was wholly impressed and floored with Aron Ra's ability to articulate evolution to lay people in a way that is understandable. I am in utter amazement by just how well this man can teach and be interesting at the same time. I've learned more about Evolution from him than I ever learned in school.

Aside from the obvious entertainment this brings with the exchanges between Aaron Ra and Kent Hovind, Aaron explains evolution in such a way here that if anyone watching and listening to this dosent walk away with a better understanding of what evolution is and how it works at the conclusion, oh woe is ye!!

The debate is 2 hours long, so fire up the popcorn if you want to learn a little bit about evolution while listening to the loonyness of Hovind ramblings.


Technically not a debate. It was a discussion, which Aron Ra insisted on so that he was able to interrupt Hovind every time that he lied or made a gross error. Since then Hovind challenged Aron Ra to a debate, they each make video responses to each other. Need a link?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Macroevolution is the result of microevolution happening over a long period of time.

Small changes in the gene pool of a species over time resulting in relatively small changes to the organisms in the population is defined as microevolution.

Macroevolution occurs when there'd be significant enough gene pool changes within a species changing over the course of many generations resulting in organisms having genetic traits different enough from their distant ancestors; so that there'd be no possible sexual reproduction occurring between somebody who were to have distant ancestral genetic traits with anybody living in the current population.

And macroevolution is not a "change of kind" that is a creationist strawman since there is never a "change of kind" in evolution. All life is ultimately the same "kind". For example there was no change from "apes to men" since men are apes.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Macroevolution is the result of microevolution happening over a long period of time.

Science postulates that this can happen....but they have never seen any specimen become the first member of a new family.

The Peppered Moth is a favorite of evolutionists, but all it did was change color....it remained a Peppered Moth even when it returned to its original color as the environment that was responsible for the change in color was cleaned up.

Small changes in the gene pool of a species over time resulting in relatively small changes to the organisms in the population is defined as microevolution.

Please understand the difference between a fact and a suggestion. Science can verify micro-evolution in a lab.....its more correctly called "adaptation"....macro-evolution is all based on a pre-conceived assumption. Science interprets its evidence to fit into only one box......the one that doesn't have an Intelligent Designer in it.

Macroevolution occurs when there'd be significant enough gene pool changes within a species changing over the course of many generations resulting in organisms having genetic traits different enough from their distant ancestors; so that there'd be no possible sexual reproduction occurring between somebody who were to have distant ancestral genetic traits with anybody living in the current population.

Regardless of ability to interbreed.....the taxonomy does not alter. Darwin's finches were all still members of the finch family....the iguanas were still iguanas, though adapted to a marine environment....the tortoises were still tortoises......science seem blind to these facts.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Technically not a debate. It was a discussion, which Aron Ra insisted on so that he was able to interrupt Hovind every time that he lied or made a gross error. Since then Hovind challenged Aron Ra to a debate, they each make video responses to each other. Need a link?
I actually came across a few on YT. That's a lot of material so I know I'm in for a lot more education and of course watching Hovind bungle his way through.

I noticed Aron has made quite a few vids with other creationists as well as various talks and I have to admit I like him a lot better than Richard Dawkins. If for anyting, it's for his amazing ability to teach in a way that you can understand and comprehend. It's so refreshing to have people like him around.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Science postulates that this can happen....but they have never seen any specimen become the first member of a new family.

The Peppered Moth is a favorite of evolutionists, but all it did was change color....it remained a Peppered Moth even when it returned to its original color as the environment that was responsible for the change in color was cleaned up.



Please understand the difference between a fact and a suggestion. Science can verify micro-evolution in a lab.....its more correctly called "adaptation"....macro-evolution is all based on a pre-conceived assumption. Science interprets its evidence to fit into only one box......the one that doesn't have an Intelligent Designer in it.



Regardless of ability to interbreed.....the taxonomy does not alter. Darwin's finches were all still members of the finch family....the iguanas were still iguanas, though adapted to a marine environment....the tortoises were still tortoises......science seem blind to these facts.
You do realize that evolution is based on the genome for which we can trace back to our ancestors.

Bears for instance comes from the genome shared by dogs and seals. Not through breeding of course, but through the genome that was imparted from a common ancestor.

It's also interesting know that butterflies are pretty much an evolved moth. And you're right moths will stay moths until they adapt , branch out, and form a new species. Like butterflies. Who knows what butterflies will lead too over the course of evolution?

 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I actually came across a few on YT. That's a lot of material so I know I'm in for a lot more education and of course watching Hovind bungle his way through.

I noticed Aron has made quite a few vids with other creationists as well as various talks and I have to admit I like him a lot better than Richard Dawkins. If for anyting, it's for his amazing ability to teach in a way that you can understand and comprehend. It's so refreshing to have people like him around.
Hovind obviously did not like his work. He put up videos and then took them down. Aron started to mirror Hovind's videos as soon as they were put up and put them on his channel too. You might not be able to see all of Hovind's responses if you look at his channel.

Personally, I can't listen to Hovind. He is obviously lying or is an idiot and I can only take so much of his nonsense. Aron Ra suffers for me.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Science postulates that this can happen....but they have never seen any specimen become the first member of a new family.

The Peppered Moth is a favorite of evolutionists, but all it did was change color....it remained a Peppered Moth even when it returned to its original color as the environment that was responsible for the change in color was cleaned up.



Please understand the difference between a fact and a suggestion. Science can verify micro-evolution in a lab.....its more correctly called "adaptation"....macro-evolution is all based on a pre-conceived assumption. Science interprets its evidence to fit into only one box......the one that doesn't have an Intelligent Designer in it.



Regardless of ability to interbreed.....the taxonomy does not alter. Darwin's finches were all still members of the finch family....the iguanas were still iguanas, though adapted to a marine environment....the tortoises were still tortoises......science seem blind to these facts.


As I've noted elsewhere in some other discussions about Christianity, Jesus's family tree has a time span of 77 generations listed between his generation and Adam whom the Bible claims was the "first man". Reference: (Luke 3:23-38) and Eve whom the Bible claims as the mother of all the living. (Genesis 3:20)

However, the Australian aborigines have evidently been in Australia for over a thousand consecutive generations. Reference: Aboriginal Australians - Wikipedia

There have been hundreds of generations of Native Americans between the time their common ancestry migrated from Asia until the time of Christ.
Reference: Native Americans in the United States - Wikipedia

Of course, the Bible is wrong; in fact, there were people prior to the 76th generation before Christ that allegedly was spawned by Adam and Eve.

Adam as being the first man and perpetrator of original sin is an important premise of Christianity. If Adam wasn't the first man, then there isn't actually any "origin sin". Jesus supposedly died on the Cross to save humankind from "original sin". If there isn't any "original sin" from which to be saved, then Jesus Christ's death on the Cross is pretty pointless and meaningless. Evidently, there were many generations of people prior to the 76th generation before Christ whom the Bible claims was spawned by Adam. So then, Adam, Eve and original sin are mythological. There is neither any "first man" nor "original sin" throughout human evolution. Thus, Jesus Christ having died on the cross to save mankind from "original sin" is not reality but is rather mythological.

The fossil record isn't the only evidence in support of evolution. There is other collaborating evidence, such as overwhelming genetic evidence of common ancestry between humans and other great ape species.

Specific examples from comparative physiology and biochemistry:

Chromosome 2 in humans

Main article: Chromosome 2 (human)

Further information: Chimpanzee Genome Project § Genes of the Chromosome 2 fusion site

Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere
Evidence for the evolution of Homo sapiens from a common ancestor with chimpanzees is found in the number of chromosomes in humans as compared to all other members of Hominidae. All hominidae have 24 pairs of chromosomes, except humans, who have only 23 pairs. Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.

The evidence for this includes:
The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the common chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.
The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.

Chromosome 2 thus presents strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes. According to J. W. Ijdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2
Chromosome2_merge.png

Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_o...on_descent

Endogenous retroviruses (or ERVs) are remnant sequences in the genome left from ancient viral infections in an organism. The retroviruses (or virogenes) are always passed on to the next generation of that organism that received the infection. This leaves the virogene left in the genome. Because this event is rare and random, finding identical chromosomal positions of a virogene in two different species suggests common ancestry. Cats (Felidae) present a notable instance of virogene sequences demonstrating common descent. The standard phylogenetic tree for Felidae have smaller cats (Felis chaus, Felis silvestris, Felis nigripes, and Felis catus) diverging from larger cats such as the subfamily Pantherinae and other carnivores. The fact that small cats have an ERV where the larger cats do not suggests that the gene was inserted into the ancestor of the small cats after the larger cats had diverged. Another example of this is with humans and chimps. Humans contain numerous ERVs that comprise a considerable percentage of the genome. Sources vary, but 1% to 8% has been proposed. Humans and chimps share seven different occurrences of virogenes, while all primates share similar retroviruses congruent with phylogeny.

Fig.1.jpg


The first individual of the genus Homo-species formed from a couple of Australopithecus hetero zygotes, each of whom had the same type of chromosome rearrangements formed by fusion of the whole long arms of two acrocentric chromosomes, mated together and reproduced viable and fertile offspring with 46 chromosomes.

This first generation of Homo habilis then incestuously bred with each other and reproduced the next subsequent generation of Homo habilis.

References:
  1. J. Tjio and A. Levan. 1956. The chromosome number of Man. Hereditas, 42( 1-2): 1-6.
  2. W. Ijdo et al.1991. Origin of human chromosome 2: an ancestral telomere-telomere fusión. PNAS, 88: 9051-9056.
  3. Meyer et al. 2012 A high-coverage genome sequence from an archaic Denisovan individual. Science, 338:222-226.; K. H. Miga. 2016. Chromosome-specific Centromere sequences provide an estímate of the Ancestral Chromosome 2 Fusion event in Hominin Genome.Journ. of Heredity. 1-8. Doi:10.1093/jhered/esw039.
chromosome_fusion2.png


There's plenty of evidence humans share common ancestry with other great apes.

Evidence of common descent - Wikipedia

ERVs provide the closest thing to a mathematical proof for evolution.. ERVs are the relics of ancient viral infections preserved in our DNA. The odd thing is many ERVs are located in exactly the same position on our genome and the chimpanzee genome! There are two explanations for the perfectly matched ERV locations. Either it is an unbelievable coincidence that viruses just by chance were inserted in exactly the same location in our genomes, or humans and chimps share a common ancestor. The chances that a virus was inserted at the exact same location is 1 in 3,000,000,000. Humans and chimps share 7 instances of viruses inserted at perfectly matched location. It was our common ancestor that was infected, and we both inherited the ERVs.

Johnson, Welkin E.; Coffin, John M. (1999-08-31). "Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 96(18): 10254–10260. Bibcode:1999PNAS...9610254J. doi:10.1073/pnas.96.18.10254. ISSN 0027-8424. PMC 17875. PMID 10468595
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
And macroevolution is not a "change of kind" that is a creationist strawman since there is never a "change of kind" in evolution. All life is ultimately the same "kind". For example there was no change from "apes to men" since men are apes.

Many Creationists do accept the fact humans share a common ancestry with any other species, because there's overwhelming genetic and fossil evidence that all organisms now living on Earth have a common descent from some last universal common ancestor. Right?

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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Many Creationists do accept the fact humans share a common ancestry with any other species, because there's overwhelming genetic and fossil evidence that all organisms now living on Earth have a common descent from some last universal common ancestor. Right?

The Bible says that God created the various "kinds" of living things in separate creative periods....he does not mention species. Species are simply variety produced within a single taxonomic family. It is obvious that the Creator loves variety.

Adaptation is a mechanism by which creatures can undergo small, cosmetic changes that can facilitate any alteration in food source or change in environment.

Since creation is direct, then there is no need of a common ancestor. The only place we see common ancestry is in science's diagrams. They cannot provide any real evidence that does not include inference and assumption. It's really guesswork.

The evidence is not overwhelming in facts, but definitely overwhelming in volume. Genetic evidence simply points to the fact that all living things have the same Creator who used the same basic materials for all living things. It is not proof of relationship with each other, but relationship to the God who put us here.

The fossils cannot speak unless science gives them a voice.

Creationists simply believe what is obvious to all logical thinkers....there is an Intelligent Designer of all things.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
The Bible says ....

The Bible is wrong because its genealogy of Jesus's family tree has a time span of 77 generations listed between his generation and Adam whom the Bible claims was the "first man". Reference: (Luke 3:23-38) and Eve whom the Bible claims as the mother of all the living. (Genesis 3:20)

However, the Australian aborigines have evidently been in Australia for over a thousand consecutive generations. Reference: Aboriginal Australians - Wikipedia

There have been hundreds of generations of Native Americans between the time their common ancestry migrated from Asia until the time of Christ.
Reference: Native Americans in the United States - Wikipedia

Of course, the Bible is wrong; in fact, there were people prior to the 76th generation before Christ that allegedly was spawned by Adam and Eve.

Adam as being the first man and perpetrator of original sin is an important premise of Christianity. If Adam wasn't the first man, then there isn't actually any "origin sin". Jesus supposedly died on the Cross to save humankind from "original sin". If there isn't any "original sin" from which to be saved, then Jesus Christ's death on the Cross is pretty pointless and meaningless. Evidently, there were many generations of people prior to the 76th generation before Christ whom the Bible claims was spawned by Adam. So then, Adam, Eve and original sin are mythological. There is neither any "first man" nor "original sin" throughout human evolution. Thus, Jesus Christ having died on the cross to save mankind from "original sin" is not reality but is rather mythological,
 
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Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
I actually came across a few on YT. That's a lot of material so I know I'm in for a lot more education and of course watching Hovind bungle his way through.

I noticed Aron has made quite a few vids with other creationists as well as various talks and I have to admit I like him a lot better than Richard Dawkins. If for anyting, it's for his amazing ability to teach in a way that you can understand and comprehend. It's so refreshing to have people like him around.

Imo, Aron Ra needs a hair cut in order to conserve on shampoo and shower water expenses.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
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