How different Great Religions are?

[InvestigateTruth]

I have been doing some research and you are totally inaccurate with your statements about the Buddhist view of reincarnation

This is what it says - which is a lot closer to what I have been saying - "hell" is getting to come back over and over until one merges with the light

There is no figuratively - this is literal

I grew up being taught about the various religions and the Jataka tales were one of the parables used to illustrate the life of the soul known as Bodhisattva - a selection of the tales meant for children is here and there is another perspective here

On the one hand I can appreciate what you are trying to do - on the other hand I am somewhat compelled to point out, as have others, that you are failing miserably at it

Trying to call actual reincarnation "figurative" so it fits in your world view - is a hole that many dharmics could drive a mack truck through.

My advice to you: Clear your mind and sit down and read about Samkhya and Adwaita Vedanta and Sikhism - and not from Wikipedia

As @Jainarayan has indicated elsewhere - this is very real according to dharmic thought - read one perspective here

You have misunderstood what I said then. I didnt say, Buddhist believe rebirth is figurative. Buddhists believe rebirth is literal, as in literal reincarnation. I said, if we read the quotes of Buddha, as I have shown, we can see, He was not speaking literally of a rebirth. Do you see the difference? I am saying, if we want to know what Buddha taught, we must see what Buddha said, not what people say about Him. Do you believe for examples, the Muslims have a perfect interpretation of Quran? Or Christians have a perfect interpretation of the Bible? How do you know?

I quote again what I said in OP for you:

When Buddha appeared among people, They had already believed in reincarnation. Had Buddha confronted them, saying to them, their belief in reincarnation is false, they could not stand it. They would have been disturbed, and would not listen to His main teachings, which was to train their spirituality (the Medicine). Thus, when Buddha came to them, outwardly spoke in their agreement. In my view, this why, we can see, Buddha appears to be speaking of rebirth. However, if we read His discourses carefully, and think deeply about what He says, we see that, He is not speaking of a literal rebirth in this world. He gives it a new definition of Rebirth.

 

[sayak83]

I believe both rebirth and resurrection are true, albeit figuratively, not literally. When Buddha or Krishna spoke of return and rebirth, they meant exactly what Bahaullah means it in the following quote. I can quote from Buddha, to show He also did not mean a literal reincarnation, but He meant exactly how Bahaullah explained. But because people of krishna or Buddha's time, had a previous belief in literal reincarnation, they thought Buddha or Krishna are also speaking literally. Here is what Bahaullah says:


"O brother, behold how the inner mysteries of “rebirth,” of “return,” and of “resurrection” have each, through these all-sufficing, these unanswerable, and conclusive utterances, been unveiled and unraveled before thine eyes. God grant that through His gracious and invisible assistance, thou mayest divest thy body and soul of the old garment, and array thyself with the new and imperishable attire.
Therefore, those who in every subsequent Dispensation preceded the rest of mankind in embracing the Faith of God, who quaffed the clear waters of knowledge at the hand of the divine Beauty, and attained the loftiest summits of faith and certitude, these can be regarded, in name, in reality, in deeds, in words, and in rank, as the “return” of those who in a former Dispensation had achieved similar distinctions. For whatsoever the people of a former Dispensation have manifested, the same hath been shown by the people of this latter generation. Consider the rose: whether it blossometh in the East or in the West, it is nonetheless a rose. For what mattereth in this respect is not the outward shape and form of the rose, but rather the smell and fragrance which it doth impart."
Book of Iqan.

Didn't buddha say, Rebirth is associated with a new Age or eons?
An age or eon is just a period of time, beginning by appearence of a Buddha. Just as a Buddha is symbolically return of the previous Buddha, likewise the followers of a new Buddha, symbolically are return of a previous Buddha. In same manner, the enemies of a new Buddha and transgressors are symbolically return of previous transgressors.

Buddha will never be reborn. That is clearly written in the Suttas.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Buddha will never be reborn. That is clearly written in the Suttas.

True. He will never be born literally. But, symbolically, future Buddhas, are His rebirth.

I quote from Buddha:


"During the past three immeasurable eons I have donated to others my head, eyes, legs, marrow, brain, hands, legs, joints, countries, cities, wives, children, slaves, elephants, and horses." The Sutra of Mañjuśrī’s Questions

If Buddha is never be born, why He is saying He had donated to others His
Body many times?

Moreover, similar statements are recorded from Ali, and Hussein, successor of Muhammad, saying They had come to this world thousands times, which Bahaullah referred to their words. I quote from Bahaullah's Book of Iqan:



Have they not heard the melody of that bird of Heaven, (Ali) uttering this mystery: “A thousand Fáṭimihs I have espoused, all of whom were the daughters of Muḥammad, Son of ‘Abdu’lláh, the ‘Seal of the Prophets’”? Behold, how many are the mysteries that lie as yet unraveled within the tabernacle of the knowledge of God, and how numerous the gems of His wisdom that are still concealed in His inviolable treasuries! Shouldest thou ponder this in thine heart, thou wouldst realize that His handiwork knoweth neither beginning nor end......Ponder this utterance in thine heart, and reflect how it is applicable unto all these holy Souls. Likewise, strive thou to comprehend the meaning of the melody of that eternal beauty, Ḥusayn, son of ‘Alí, who, addressing Salmán, spoke words such as these: “I was with a thousand Adams, the interval between each and the next Adam was fifty thousand years, and to each one of these I declared the Successorship conferred upon my father.” He then recounteth certain details, until he saith: “I have fought one thousand battles in the path of God, the least and most insignificant of which was like the battle of Khaybar, in which battle my father fought and contended against the infidels.” Endeavor now to apprehend from these two traditions the mysteries of “end,” “return,” and “creation without beginning or end.”

 

[Quintessence]

Who were the founder(s) of the religions you talk about? We have to see, case by case.

There aren't any. Indigenous religions (Paganisms/Polytheisms) rarely (if ever) have founders. Which IMO is a good thing, because they never become cults of personality centered around some human.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Maybe I'll ask my grue.

I lol’d.

 

[Valjean]

I see there is great truths enshrined within these goals you have put forward, reflected in scriptures.

The key here is that no one really knows what we have added to those goals and what is our actual potential.

Thus instead of dividing east and west, it could be that all points of the compass do need to merge before we can wake up.

Regards Tony

But I don't see this solipsist phenomenology reflected in the Abrahamic scriptures. They have no doctrine of Maya that I'm aware of. The Abrahamic religions are materialist, the eastern philosophies are idealistic.

This could be what happens, when one is born again.

Regards Tony

This strikes me as a stretch. "Born again" is too ambiguous.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But I don't see this solipsist phenomenology reflected in the Abrahamic scriptures. They have no doctrine of Maya that I'm aware of. The Abrahamic religions are materialist, the eastern philosophies are idealistic.

It should be said that I see that Soul and Mind are not part of the body.

Maybe the world was not ready to bring both schools of thought together, maybe this is the time when we can acheive this unity? It may be both the East and the West will not understand what is true in faith until we do.

All holy scriptures talk of a day of great peace and knowledge. If it is not this day, when science has shown that creation most likely comes from a single point, when will it be?

The illusion as as to who we think we are, vanash only when we look for who we really are. This life like unto a vapor in the desert.

Baha'u'llah offered it like this;

"...The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger......”

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This strikes me as a stretch. "Born again" is too ambiguous.

It is us that puts limits on all things as we are part of creation, we can say part of the painting and we can not see outside the picture.

We have been told that this picture is but one of 100,000,000 more. A number no one can invisage except the creator of it all.

“No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving.”

Regards Tony

 

[sayak83]

True. He will never be born literally. But, symbolically, future Buddhas, are His rebirth.

I quote from Buddha:


"During the past three immeasurable eons I have donated to others my head, eyes, legs, marrow, brain, hands, legs, joints, countries, cities, wives, children, slaves, elephants, and horses." The Sutra of Mañjuśrī’s Questions

If Buddha is never be born, why He is saying He had donated to others His
Body many times?

Moreover, similar statements are recorded from Ali, and Hussein, successor of Muhammad, saying They had come to this world thousands times, which Bahaullah referred to their words. I quote from Bahaullah's Book of Iqan:



Have they not heard the melody of that bird of Heaven, (Ali) uttering this mystery: “A thousand Fáṭimihs I have espoused, all of whom were the daughters of Muḥammad, Son of ‘Abdu’lláh, the ‘Seal of the Prophets’”? Behold, how many are the mysteries that lie as yet unraveled within the tabernacle of the knowledge of God, and how numerous the gems of His wisdom that are still concealed in His inviolable treasuries! Shouldest thou ponder this in thine heart, thou wouldst realize that His handiwork knoweth neither beginning nor end......Ponder this utterance in thine heart, and reflect how it is applicable unto all these holy Souls. Likewise, strive thou to comprehend the meaning of the melody of that eternal beauty, Ḥusayn, son of ‘Alí, who, addressing Salmán, spoke words such as these: “I was with a thousand Adams, the interval between each and the next Adam was fifty thousand years, and to each one of these I declared the Successorship conferred upon my father.” He then recounteth certain details, until he saith: “I have fought one thousand battles in the path of God, the least and most insignificant of which was like the battle of Khaybar, in which battle my father fought and contended against the infidels.” Endeavor now to apprehend from these two traditions the mysteries of “end,” “return,” and “creation without beginning or end.”

Manjusri is a much much later text in Mahayana and cannot be ascribed with early Buddhism at all

 

[sayak83]

True. He will never be born literally. But, symbolically, future Buddhas, are His rebirth.

I quote from Buddha:


"During the past three immeasurable eons I have donated to others my head, eyes, legs, marrow, brain, hands, legs, joints, countries, cities, wives, children, slaves, elephants, and horses." The Sutra of Mañjuśrī’s Questions

If Buddha is never be born, why He is saying He had donated to others His
Body many times?

Moreover, similar statements are recorded from Ali, and Hussein, successor of Muhammad, saying They had come to this world thousands times, which Bahaullah referred to their words. I quote from Bahaullah's Book of Iqan:



Have they not heard the melody of that bird of Heaven, (Ali) uttering this mystery: “A thousand Fáṭimihs I have espoused, all of whom were the daughters of Muḥammad, Son of ‘Abdu’lláh, the ‘Seal of the Prophets’”? Behold, how many are the mysteries that lie as yet unraveled within the tabernacle of the knowledge of God, and how numerous the gems of His wisdom that are still concealed in His inviolable treasuries! Shouldest thou ponder this in thine heart, thou wouldst realize that His handiwork knoweth neither beginning nor end......Ponder this utterance in thine heart, and reflect how it is applicable unto all these holy Souls. Likewise, strive thou to comprehend the meaning of the melody of that eternal beauty, Ḥusayn, son of ‘Alí, who, addressing Salmán, spoke words such as these: “I was with a thousand Adams, the interval between each and the next Adam was fifty thousand years, and to each one of these I declared the Successorship conferred upon my father.” He then recounteth certain details, until he saith: “I have fought one thousand battles in the path of God, the least and most insignificant of which was like the battle of Khaybar, in which battle my father fought and contended against the infidels.” Endeavor now to apprehend from these two traditions the mysteries of “end,” “return,” and “creation without beginning or end.”

Did Buddha say that him and every other being are literally reborn many many times? YES.

“When my mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, that is, one birth, two births, three births, four births, five births, ten births, twenty births, thirty births, forty births, fifty births, a hundred births, a thousand births, a hundred thousand births, many eons of world-contraction, many eons of world-expansion, many eons of world-contraction and expansion: ‘There I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance, such was my nutriment, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my lifespan; and passing away from there, I was reborn elsewhere; and there too I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance, such was my nutriment, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my lifespan; and passing away from there, I was reborn here.’ Thus with their aspects and particulars I recollected my manifold past lives.


“This was the first true knowledge attained by me in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was banished and true knowledge arose, darkness was banished and light arose, as happens in one who dwells diligent, ardent, and resolute.


I directed it to knowledge of the passing away and rebirth of beings. With the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and I understood how beings fare on according to their actions.

From middle length discourses, MN36 Mahāsaccaka Sutta

This is Buddha recounting his own enlightenment experience in MN, considered one of the earliest texts in Buddhism. Just as with Gita, rebirth is considered literal and directly experienced by Buddha.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Manjusri is a much much later text in Mahayana and cannot be ascribed with early Buddhism at all

If we were going with that logic, we cannot directly prove any of the quotes of Buddha are indeed His. Same with Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster or even Jesus, as They did not sign the scriptures. But, these are traditions that were collected eventually, after transmitted generation to generation and with some intuition, and thinking carefully, we can see evidence of consistency. It is almost impossible, that after sometime, some Buddhists, have made up new things as words of Buddha, because the religious leaders would have opposed it. It is as if today, some Christians make up some new quotes from Jesus. The Buddhists believe in Buddha as Holy Being who is to be worshipped. Would a people who believe in Buddha as a Holy Being, make changes to His teachings, and alter them, such adding or removing from Him? Most certainly false ideas added to Buddhism by Buddhists leaders through generation, but not by making up stories, rather, by misinterpreting words of Buddha, and in these cases, it is possible to distinguish between 'interpretations' and actual quotes of Buddha.

 

[sayak83]

If we were going with that logic, we cannot directly prove any of the quotes of Buddha are indeed His. Same with Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster or even Jesus, as They did not sign the scriptures. But, these are traditions that were collected eventually, after transmitted generation to generation and with some intuition, and thinking carefully, we can see evidence of consistency. It is almost impossible, that after sometime, some Buddhists, have made up new things as words of Buddha, because the religious leaders would have opposed it. It is as if today, some Christians make up some new quotes from Jesus. The Buddhists believe in Buddha as Holy Being who is to be worshipped. Would a people who believe in Buddha as a Holy Being, make changes to His teachings, and alter them, such adding or removing from Him? Most certainly false ideas added to Buddhism by Buddhists leaders through generation, but not by making up stories, rather, by misinterpreting words of Buddha, and in these cases, it is possible to distinguish between 'interpretations' and actual quotes of Buddha.

Not really. Most of Gnostic Christian texts are later additions and majority of scholars have very good reason to believe that John's book is also not part of the earliest tradition contained in the synoptics.

When it comes to Mahayana Prajnaparamita sutras, the followers themselves record that these were supposedly "secret" teachings kept aside by Buddha not known to anyone until they were discovered from beneath the sea at around 1st century BCE.

For example, the heart sutra was composed in China in around 200 CE.
Heart Sutra - Encyclopedia of Buddhism

However, based on textual patterns in the Sanskrit and Chinese versions of the Heart Sūtra and the Mahaprajnaparamita Sutra, scholar Jan Nattier has suggested that the earliest (shortest) version of the Heart Sūtra was probably first composed in China in the Chinese language from a mixture of Indian-derived material and new composition, and that this assemblage was later translated into Sanskrit (or back-translated, in the case of most of the sūtra). She argues that the majority of the text was redacted from the Larger Sutra on the Perfection of Wisdom, which had originated with a Sanskrit Indian original, but that the "framing" passages (the introduction and concluding passages) were new compositions in Chinese by a Chinese author, and that the text was intended as a dharani rather than a sūtra.[7][18][19] The Chinese version of the core (i.e. the short version) of the Heart Sūtra matches a passage from the Large Sutra almost exactly, character by character; but the corresponding Sanskrit texts, while agreeing in meaning, differ in virtually every word.[20] Furthermore, Nattier argues that there is no evidence (such as a commentary would be) of a Sanskrit version before the 8th century CE,[21] and she dates the first evidence (in the form of commentaries by Xuanzang's disciples Kuiji and Wonch'uk, and Dunhuang manuscripts) of Chinese versions to the 7th century CE.

So, yes, almost all Mahayana sutras were composed centuries after Buddha himself.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Did Buddha say that him and every other being are literally reborn many many times? YES.

“When my mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, that is, one birth, two births, three births, four births, five births, ten births, twenty births, thirty births, forty births, fifty births, a hundred births, a thousand births, a hundred thousand births, many eons of world-contraction, many eons of world-expansion, many eons of world-contraction and expansion: ‘There I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance, such was my nutriment, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my lifespan; and passing away from there, I was reborn elsewhere; and there too I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance, such was my nutriment, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my lifespan; and passing away from there, I was reborn here.’ Thus with their aspects and particulars I recollected my manifold past lives.


“This was the first true knowledge attained by me in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was banished and true knowledge arose, darkness was banished and light arose, as happens in one who dwells diligent, ardent, and resolute.


I directed it to knowledge of the passing away and rebirth of beings. With the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and I understood how beings fare on according to their actions.

From middle length discourses, MN36 Mahāsaccaka Sutta

This is Buddha recounting his own enlightenment experience in MN, considered one of the earliest texts in Buddhism. Just as with Gita, rebirth is considered literal and directly experienced by Buddha.

Yes, I am aware of that quote and Of course it appears to be as if it is a literal rebirth, but we must think a little.

He says

"I recollected my manifold past lives"

This is in confirmation that Buddha had past rebirths, and had come to this world many times!

But if we take this literally, how would it be reconcilable with the belief that Buddha is not reborn? Because, Those who believe in Reincarnation, say, those who are NOT spiritually good enough, come back again and again to this world for getting better, until they can go to heaven. Whereas, Buddha, had been always Good, with no unrighteousness, thus, why was He born again and again in this world? The only way to reconcile is, not to take the rebirth literally, but, this is just a symbolic expression, that every time, an enlightened One appears on earth, it is as if, same Buddha is reborn again. And I have shown even in Islamic traditions, some of their Holy Figures have said, They lived many times on earth before. So, why do we see this kind of idea of return, even in Islam?

 

[Vinayaka]

Because, Those who believe in Reincarnation, say, those who are NOT spiritually good enough, come back again and again to this world for getting better, until they can go to heaven.

I believe in reincarnation. This is not what I say ... at all. Please do more reading before guessing or extrapolating beliefs about how people who believe in reincarnation think. You're certainly misrepresenting Hinduism here, if not other dharmic faiths.

1) We're always good enough, just not aware enough. Nothing to do with 'getting better' whatever that means.
2) Moksha is not at all the same as heaven. There is no (everlasting) heaven.

 

[sayak83]

Yes, I am aware of that quote and Of course it appears to be as if it is a literal rebirth, but we must think a little.

He says

"I recollected my manifold past lives"

This is in confirmation that Buddha had past rebirths, and had come to this world many times!

But if we take this literally, how would it be reconcilable with the belief that Buddha is not reborn? Because, Those who believe in Reincarnation, say, those who are NOT spiritually good enough, come back again and again to this world for getting better, until they can go to heaven. Whereas, Buddha, had been always Good, with no unrighteousness, thus, why was He born again and again in this world? The only way to reconcile is, not to take the rebirth literally, but, this is just a symbolic expression, that every time, an enlightened One appears on earth, it is as if, same Buddha is reborn again. And I have shown even in Islamic traditions, some of their Holy Figures have said, They lived many times on earth before. So, why do we see this kind of idea of return, even in Islam?

Buddha will not be reborn any more, because in his last life, he attained Nibbana. This is clear if you read on...

When my mind had immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—I extended it toward knowledge of the ending of defilements. I truly understood: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.’ I truly understood: ‘These are defilements’ … ‘This is the origin of defilements’ … ‘This is the cessation of defilements’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of defilements.’ Knowing and seeing like this, my mind was freed from the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. When it was freed, I knew it was freed. I understood: ‘Rebirth is ended; the spiritual journey has been completed; what had to be done has been done; there is no return to any state of existence.’ This was the third knowledge, which I achieved in the last watch of the night.


The Realized One has given up the defilements—corruptions that lead to future lives and are hurtful, resulting in suffering and future rebirth, old age, and death. He has cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, obliterated them so they are unable to arise in the future. Just as a palm tree with its crown cut off is incapable of further growth, in the same way, the Realized One has given up the defilements so they are unable to arise in the future.”


SuttaCentralSuttaCentral

Thus as can be seen....ending rebirth is the point of Buddhism as Buddha taught it. Buddha is Buddha because he had achieved the enlightenment that frees him from the rebirth cycle, and that is the ambition of those who follow him. What can be more clearer than this?

And yes, Buddha reached this perfected state through practice, he was not born perfect. He is clear about that too.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I believe in reincarnation. This is not what I say ... at all. Please do more reading before guessing or extrapolating beliefs about how people who believe in reincarnation think. You're certainly misrepresenting Hinduism here, if not other dharmic faiths.

1) We're always good enough, just not aware enough. Nothing to do with 'getting better' whatever that means.
2) Moksha is not at all the same as heaven. There is no (everlasting) heaven.

As far as we are speaking from Buddhism Scriptures, it uses the Term 'Heaven'.
But it is irrelevant here if you want to say Not aware enough, or Not good enough. Because, there is the Karma, and the Karma that determines if a person deserves to come back to this world (according to literal reincarnation). So, are you saying Buddha was not aware enough? How do we know that?

 

[sayak83]

As far as we are speaking from Buddhism Scriptures, it uses the Term 'Heaven'.
But it is irrelevant here if you want to say Not aware enough, or Not good enough. Because, there is the Karma, and the Karma that determines if a person deserves to come back to this world (according to literal reincarnation). So, are you saying Buddha was not aware enough? How do we know that?

He said it himself. Read the text.
When my mind had immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—I extended it toward knowledge of the death and rebirth of sentient beings. With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, I saw sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. I understood how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds. This was the second knowledge, which I achieved in the middle watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed and knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed and light arose, as happens for a meditator who is diligent, keen, and resolute. But even such pleasant feeling did not occupy my mind.
SuttaCentral
He was ignorant before. Now he knew.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Buddha will not be reborn any more, because in his last life, he attained Nibbana. This is clear if you read on...

When my mind had immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—I extended it toward knowledge of the ending of defilements. I truly understood: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.’ I truly understood: ‘These are defilements’ … ‘This is the origin of defilements’ … ‘This is the cessation of defilements’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of defilements.’ Knowing and seeing like this, my mind was freed from the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. When it was freed, I knew it was freed. I understood: ‘Rebirth is ended; the spiritual journey has been completed; what had to be done has been done; there is no return to any state of existence.’ This was the third knowledge, which I achieved in the last watch of the night.


The Realized One has given up the defilements—corruptions that lead to future lives and are hurtful, resulting in suffering and future rebirth, old age, and death. He has cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, obliterated them so they are unable to arise in the future. Just as a palm tree with its crown cut off is incapable of further growth, in the same way, the Realized One has given up the defilements so they are unable to arise in the future.”


SuttaCentralSuttaCentral

Thus as can be seen....ending rebirth is the point of Buddhism as Buddha taught it. Buddha is Buddha because he had achieved the enlightenment that frees him from the rebirth cycle, and that is the ambition of those who follow him. What can be more clearer than this?

And yes, Buddha reached this perfected state through practice, he was not born perfect. He is clear about that too.

You don't seem to have understood me. Where did I say, Buddha will be literal be born!?
I have shown that, Buddha according to scriptures was born before.

I am rejecting literal interpretations of rebirth.

That is what I am rejecting, that Buddha will neither be born again, nor, was ever He born many times, because according to scriptures, Buddha was good always, and He sacrificed himself for others many times before. Thus, when Scriptures talk about His past rebirth, it cannot be interpreted literally. His promise of coming future Buddhas, can be seen as a symbolic return of Buddha. It might be interesting that, Jesus also promised to return, and so did Krishna. And in Islam, all are supposed to return to world again. Thus we see, consistency among different great Religions. But, as I quoted from Bahaullah, He says, 'Return', is symbolic, not literal. We can leave it as that.

 

[ManSinha]

He born many times, because according to scriptures, Buddha was good always

The issue is not with "good enough" - the issue is with degrees of enlightenment - the soul known as Bodhisattva underwent many births to continually progress to become the Buddha - there is a linear link - that is what all of us have been trying to say

Birth -> Rebirth ------ > Merge with the Light

It might be interesting that, Jesus also promised to return, and so did Krishna

And where are you getting that from? Direct link and source please.

 

[sayak83]

You don't seem to have understood me. Where did I say, Buddha will be literal be born!?
I have shown that, Buddha according to scriptures was born before.

I am rejecting literal interpretations of rebirth.

That is what I am rejecting, that Buddha will neither be born again, nor, was ever He born many times, because according to scriptures, Buddha was good always, and He sacrificed himself for others many times before. Thus, when Scriptures talk about His past rebirth, it cannot be interpreted literally. His promise of coming future Buddhas, can be seen as a symbolic return of Buddha. It might be interesting that, Jesus also promised to return, and so did Krishna. And in Islam, all are supposed to return to world again. Thus we see, consistency among different great Religions. But, as I quoted from Bahaullah, He says, 'Return', is symbolic, not literal. We can leave it as that.

I have shown explicitly that
i) Buddha directly says he was reborn, literally many many many times in the ages past.

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details. "This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night."

I have also shown explicitly, that
ii)Buddha says, that now that he has attained liberation from desire and ignorance (which he had not yet achieved before), he will never be born again.:-
“When I knew and saw thus, my mind was liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it was liberated there came the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ I directly knew: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’

The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha - Selections | Wisdom Publications

Given these obvious clear discourses from some of the earliest Buddhist scriptures that directly contradict your Baha'i influenced beliefs, why should we not summarily reject them as being contrary to Buddha's word?