How did your god/s create the earth?

[RoaringSilence]

Peace be on you.
According to Ahmadiyya-Muslim understating of Holy Quran, God made the universe (earth is included) through:
Command which lead to
Creation and
Guided-evolution

Ref: Quranic references @
Book: Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge & Truth @
alislamDOTorg

I agree with "command" part , and i also agree with endless cycle or creation / destruction / re creation .
The command is the word itself , the reason for creation is for itself to express its own self , experience its own self , evolve its own self endlessly.
The command is in the atom , and the command is in what makes the atoms , the command tells atoms to bind , and evolve.
Command=Wisdom/information/Gyan /Knowledge/Consciousness/Coding

 

[godnotgod]

I agree with "command" part , and i also agree with endless cycle or creation / destruction / re creation .
The command is the word itself , the reason for creation is for itself to express its own self , experience its own self , evolve its own self endlessly.

This is a contradiction: if the cycle of the Universe is endless, then there never was a beginning nor will there be an end. Because of this endless cycle, it does not require to be 'commanded' to have a beginning, to be 'created'. It's superfluous and implies a 'commander' of that which is being commanded. Now you have created a duality, which is also a contradiction to that which is The Uni-verse*, which is Everything by definition, and being Everything, it then must also be The Absolute, since there is no relative 'other' to which it can be compared. In other words.....

"The Universe [itself] is [none other than] The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

(bracketed text mine)

To put it bluntly, you are seeing double, where no 'other' is apparent. If there is no 'other', then God must also have created himself, which makes no sense. God, being The Absolute, must also be The Universe itself.

*I am defining 'Universe' to include all multi-verses as well.

The Universe is all of time and space and its contents. The Universe includes planets, natural satellites, minor planets, stars, galaxies, the contents of intergalactic space, the smallest subatomic particles, and all matter and energy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

 

[RoaringSilence]

Peace be on you.
According to Ahmadiyya-Muslim understating of Holy Quran, God made the universe (earth is included) through:
Command which lead to
Creation and
Guided-evolution

Ref: Quranic references @
Book: Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge & Truth @
alislamDOTorg

This is a contradiction: if the cycle of the Universe is endless, then there never was a beginning nor will there be an end. Because of this endless cycle, it does not require to be 'commanded' to have a beginning, to be 'created'. It's superfluous and implies a 'commander' of that which is being commanded. Now you have created a duality, which is also a contradiction to that which is The Uni-verse*, which is Everything by definition, and being Everything, it then must also be The Absolute, since there is no relative 'other' to which it can be compared. In other words.....

"The Universe [itself] is [none other than] The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

(bracketed text mine)

To put it bluntly, you are seeing double, where no 'other' is apparent. If there is no 'other', then God must also have created himself, which makes no sense. God, being The Absolute, must also be The Universe itself.

*I am defining 'Universe' to include all multi-verses as well.

The Universe is all of time and space and its contents. The Universe includes planets, natural satellites, minor planets, stars, galaxies, the contents of intergalactic space, the smallest subatomic particles, and all matter and energy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

There is no exit without duality. the self which isn't manifested , meets the manifested . they may not have split in the first place , but the identities prevail. Its like an ocean , if every wave assumes it's existence as separate identity then it will view the ocean as the other. If the wave find no self identity , then it merged at the very realization or it never separated to begin with.

To understand , no beginning no end. you need to understand infinity. when you have point A to point B run. Then you can find end and beginning. But there is no beginning and end to an infinite circle /loop which can be identified and called as a finite start and end.

both ways to look at it are acceptable and subjective , because if one assumes separate identity That part is in duality, when the myth is busted the same duality is unity.( go to a mirror and look at your body. Now just look at your hand.. is your hand you? yes/no? but is a hand a hand? yes/no.
To understand , time and timeless - dip that hand in water bucket. and find the answer

The command is a part of its own properties. The word is with god and the word is god itself.
Water has its own command /properties /code to behave how it does. so will the waves have the same coding but playing a different role while that role exists. When water evaporates the form is gaseous , then clouds , then rain water again , the subtle code retained its entirety even when it was gas/steam.

 

[godnotgod]

There is no exit without duality. the self which isn't manifested , meets the manifested . they may not have split in the first place , but the identities prevail. Its like an ocean , if every wave assumes it's existence as separate identity then it will view the ocean as the other. If the wave find no self identity , then it merged at the very realization or it never separated to begin with.

If there never was a separation, then all duality is illusory. Only the ocean is real, and 'wave' is at all times 'ocean'. What we call 'wave' is purely conceptual. It is still a feature of 'ocean'.

There is no exit nor entry.* There is only that which is manifested/unmanifested, which is the same as the Source of the manifested. IOW, The Absolute is manifesting itself as the world. The potential for 'world' is always present, just as light potential is always present prior to the flipping of the switch. (I think here we border on Quantum Physics).

To understand , no beginning no end. you need to understand infinity. when you have point A to point B run. Then you can find end and beginning. But there is no beginning and end to an infinite circle /loop which can be identified and called as a finite start and end.

To understand no beginning/no end is to understand that Time is purely conceptual, since both require it, since both are change, and change takes place only in Time, as astronomer John Dobson explains:

"Vivekananda's statement that the Universe is the Absolute seen through the screen of time, space and causation allows us to get some interesting information, albeit in negative terms, about what he calls the Absolute. Since it is not in time, it cannot be changing. Change takes place only in time. And since it is not in space, it must be undivided, because dividedness and separation occur only in space. And since it is therefore one and undivided, it must also be infinite, since there is no "other" to limit it. Now "changeless," "infinite," and "undivided" are negative statements, but they will suffice. We can trace the physics of our Universe from these three negative statements. If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

http://quanta-gaia.org/dobson/EquationsOfMaya.html

both ways to look at it are acceptable and subjective , because if one assumes separate identity That part is in duality, when the myth is busted the same duality is unity.( go to a mirror and look at your body. Now just look at your hand.. is your hand you? yes/no? but is a hand a hand? yes/no.
To understand , time and timeless - dip that hand in water bucket. and find the answer

There is no 'both'. The foreground (ie; the manifested) can only exist because of the background (ie; the Source). IOW, they are One. The dual view is an illusory one, and while it may be temporarily 'acceptable', it only leads to delusion and metaphysical anxiety. If the dual view is illusory, then the non-dual view is the only true view, and being the only true view, is The Absolute. IOW, it has no opposite, because the dual view is an illusion, so it actually does not exist. The wave, thinking itself separate in Identification from ocean, is completely delusive. The gold chain is, at all times, pure gold.

The command is a part of its own properties. The word is with god and the word is god itself.
Water has its own command /properties /code to behave how it does. so will the waves have the same coding but playing a different role while that role exists. When water evaporates the form is gaseous , then clouds , then rain water again , the subtle code retained its entirety even when it was gas/steam.

That's fine, but there is no 'commander' of 'the commanded', and for us, no 'experiencer' of the experience. There is only the experience itself. Identification is fiction.

Note that the text also reads: '....and the Word BECAME flesh...', ie; 'BECAME the material world'. The material world and the Word are one and the same Reality, but the world comes and goes, while the Word does not come and go. The actor can play various roles, all temporal, but behind all the masks is the same actor who remains when the masks are put away. (Actually, nothing ever 'becomes' anything else; it's all just the play of maya.) The character is, at all times, the actor.

* "All this world is filled with coming and going. Show me the path where there is no coming and going."
Zen source

 

[RoaringSilence]

If there never was a separation, then all duality is illusory. Only the ocean is real, and 'wave' is at all times 'ocean'. What we call 'wave' is purely conceptual. It is still a feature of 'ocean'.
There is no exit nor entry.* There is only that which is manifested, which is the same as the Source of the manifested. IOW, The Absolute is manifesting itself as the world. The potential for 'world' is always present, just as light potential is always present prior to the flipping of the switch. (I think here we border on Quantum Physics).



To understand no beginning/no end is to understand that Time is purely conceptual, since both require it, since both are change, and change takes place only in Time, as astronomer John Dobson explains:

"Vivekananda's statement that the Universe is the Absolute seen through the screen of time, space and causation allows us to get some interesting information, albeit in negative terms, about what he calls the Absolute. Since it is not in time, it cannot be changing. Change takes place only in time. And since it is not in space, it must be undivided, because dividedness and separation occur only in space. And since it is therefore one and undivided, it must also be infinite, since there is no "other" to limit it. Now "changeless," "infinite," and "undivided" are negative statements, but they will suffice. We can trace the physics of our Universe from these three negative statements. If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

http://quanta-gaia.org/dobson/EquationsOfMaya.html



There is no 'both'. The foreground (ie; the manifested) can only exist because of the background (ie; the Source). IOW, they are One. The dual view is an illusory one, and while it may be temporarily 'acceptable', it only leads to delusion and metaphysical anxiety. If the dual view is illusory, then the non-dual view is the only true view, and being the only true view, is The Absolute. IOW, it has no opposite, because the dual view is an illusion, so it actually does not exist. The wave, thinking itself separate in Identification from ocean, is completely delusive. The gold chain is, at all times, pure gold.



That's fine, but there is no 'commander' of 'the commanded', and for us, no 'experiencer' of the experience. There is only the experience itself. Identification is fiction.

Note that the text also reads: '....and the Word BECAME flesh...', ie; 'BECAME the material world'. The material world and the Word are one and the same Reality, but the world comes and goes, while the Word does not come and go. The actor can play various roles, all temporal, but behind all the masks is the same actor who remains when the masks are put away. (Actually, nothing ever 'becomes' anything else; it's all just the play of maya.) The character is, at all times, the actor.

* "All this world is filled with coming and going. Show me the path where there is no coming and going."
Zen source

Both views are established and have been debated over for several ages. For a duality believer its easy to understand your view and find them okay, and yet stick with his without contradiction. But for non duality believer its hard to digest duality. I stand with duality because that is my learning curve until it ceases to be dual. There are no consequences in sticking with either , if you say being a duality believer is a mistake , please explain how and why.

 

[RoaringSilence]

That's fine, but there is no 'commander' of 'the commanded', and for us, no 'experiencer' of the experience. There is only the experience itself. Identification is fiction.

I never implied a commander , i also added a few more words to explain that command means coding /its own properties.

 

[RoaringSilence]

There is only the experience itself. Identification is fiction.

Who are you debating with?

 

[YmirGF]

Who are you debating with?

Anyone who will listen actually. Toss him a ball and he will run for hours and hours and hours and hours.... Life is too short for some things.

 

[RoaringSilence]

Anyone who will listen actually. Toss him a ball and he will run for hours and hours and hours and hours.... Life is too short for some things.

exactly , lol i wrote the same thing and he replies back saying the same thing i said in different words , and then expects me to argue it. i said the same thing . All he could've said is..If you think there is 2 then its illusion. and i would say, yes illusion exists. so there is illusion and no illusion =2 . End of story.

This is what i said

If the wave finds no self identity , then it merged at the very realization or it never separated to begin with

 

[YmirGF]

exactly , lol i wrote the same thing and he replies back saying the same thing i said in different words , and then expects me to argue it. i said the same thing . All he could've said is..If you think there is 2 then its illusion. and i would say, yes illusion exists. so there is illusion and no illusion =2 . End of story.

Oh, dear god, don't get him going....

I'm pretty sure he is one of those folks you occasionally observe arguing with a plant or bush outside a shopping mall.

 

[RoaringSilence]

Oh, dear god, don't get him going....

I'm pretty sure he is one of those folks you occasionally observe arguing with a plant or bush outside a shopping mall.

oh well i don't know him well enough to ridicule , and you may have had some reason to say that. But then i can understand his view easily , and he is in catch 22 to debate , so i don't think it should last long

 

[godnotgod]

I never implied a commander , i also added a few more words to explain that command means coding /its own properties.

The very word 'command' ordinarily implies an agent of command.

 

[RoaringSilence]

The very word 'command' ordinarily implies an agent of command.

Command=Wisdom/information/Gyan /Knowledge/Consciousness/Coding

this quote is from my first post, and in all posts you will find me using multiple words to explain command.

 

[godnotgod]

Both views are established and have been debated over for several ages. For a duality believer its easy to understand your view and find them okay, and yet stick with his without contradiction. But for non duality believer its hard to digest duality. I stand with duality because that is my learning curve until it ceases to be dual. There are no consequences in sticking with either , if you say being a duality believer is a mistake , please explain how and why.

The mistake is simply that what is The Absolute is erroneously seen as somehow separated. We see ocean. We see waves on the ocean. It is the discriminating mind which sees 'wave' as distinct from ocean, where there is never a separation at any time, from inception to dissolution of the wave. For the discriminating mind, the duality of 'wave' and 'ocean' is real, but when the discriminating mind is stilled, it becomes clear that there is no such distinction. It is not a matter of belief in one view or the other; it is a matter of seeing things as they actually are, rather than how the thinking mind conceptualizes them to be. Duality is never the case. It is just an illusion of the mind.

 

[godnotgod]

this quote is from my first post, and in all posts you will find me using multiple words to explain command.

As I said, ordinarily, the word 'command' carries an implication with it. It is the wrong word.

 

[godnotgod]

Who are you debating with?

I am taking issue with your position that duality is a valid view.

What is true for someone on one level of reality is not true on the next higher level. This is apparent when looking at dream-sleep. If you dream you are a dragon-slayer, and were asked during the dream if this were true, you would answer in the affirmative, that in fact, you are a dragon-slayer. But upon awakening, and were asked the same question, you would emphatically deny your being a dragon-slayer, and that it was only a dream. That is the case when ordinary conditioned awareness (duality) is compared to awakened consciousness.

As John Dobson pointed out:

"If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

The key word here is 'mistake'. It is a mistake to see the Absolute as divided, as dual. There is no observer of the observation; there is only observation.

 

[godnotgod]

Oh, dear god, don't get him going....

I'm pretty sure he is one of those folks you occasionally observe arguing with a plant or bush outside a shopping mall.

What is it that got YOU going?

Now I remember you from the shopping mall encounter. You haven't changed a bit. As I recall, you were that burning bush fellow who got all excited and passionate about nothing at all.

 

[RoaringSilence]

As I said, ordinarily, the word 'command' carries an implication with it. It is the wrong word.

Its not a wrong word, hukmey andar sab koye bahar hukam na koi. -guru granth sahib.
means - everything has command embedded nothing is outside the command.
Basically , when you do programming a code is called a code and command lines within it. command here means a set of properties, which enable anything to function. nowhere have i excluded it nor implied it. ive only tried to set more focus on the word with different words for the same reason , that it shouldn't be misunderstood as a commander's command.

 

[RoaringSilence]

The mistake is simply that what is The Absolute is erroneously seen as somehow separated. We see ocean. We see waves on the ocean. It is the discriminating mind which sees 'wave' as distinct from ocean, where there is never a separation at any time, from inception to dissolution of the wave. For the discriminating mind, the duality of 'wave' and 'ocean' is real, but when the discriminating mind is stilled, it becomes clear that there is no such distinction. It is not a matter of belief in one view or the other; it is a matter of seeing things as they actually are, rather than how the thinking mind conceptualizes them to be. Duality is never the case. It is just an illusion of the mind.

Unless you acknowledge the problem i.e illusion exists , you cannot fix it. hence no escape from illusion is possible unless you diagnose it. that's why duality is a path and singularity is destination. illusion + no illusion - illusion =1.

 

[godnotgod]

Unless you acknowledge the problem i.e illusion exists , you cannot fix it. hence no escape from illusion is possible unless you diagnose it.

An illusion does not exist. That is why it is an illusion. Therefore, there is no 'other' that is a 'real' something to which The Absolute can be compared.

When an illusion is recognized as such, it is with the enlightened consciousness that it is so recognized. Upon recognition, the problem is resolved. There is nothing to 'fix' nor escape from. You cannot escape from nor fix something that is not real to begin with. All you can do is to recognize it for what it is. To see a rope as a snake is resolved the moment you see through the illusion and realize that what you first saw as 'snake' turned out to be only a rope moving in the wind.