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How Could Christ Love Christians?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by wizanda, Jun 3, 2007.

  1. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    When people say it is good to murder him, do people really think he will be willing to be your friend?
     
  2. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Wizanda, I think physically it was the Romans that murdered him. But spiritually speaking it seems an interesting question. Because of the original sin and the downfall of man in the Bible Jesus knew he was going to be tortured and murdered long before he was.

    Where to lay the blame is complicated though. It is Eve's fault alone, or man in general. Or is God's for coming up with a redemption plan that includes torture and a violent death or Jesus for volunteering for the event?
     
  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Fair enough volunteering for the role…..
    Yet can you then imagine facing people whose premise for them living, is your death?


    How would you feel, when they all came running after you, to tell you that they loved you (just like Judas did)??…..
    "Help!! Panic they going to hang me up again"…So really how can this be called loving Christ?
     
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  4. MaddLlama

    MaddLlama Obstructor of justice

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    As far as I knew, Jesus volunteered to be hung on the cross, and if he didn't, then none of the benefits of Christianity would exist.

    And, we'd all be singing "Oh Hanukkah Oh Hanukkah...."
     
  5. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    We cannot escape the Spiritual Law that the wages of sin is death. Romans says we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Instead of moaning about it or denying it, it is best to simply accept it and be thankful you were told of this amazing love.
     
  6. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    I think that is a very accurate way to phrase that. More disturbing is the idea that the torture and murder of Jesus was the only way to human salvation instead of living a just and good life. Justify a torture murder seems a very bizarre idea to build a belief system around. It further opens the door to future justifications of torture and murder.
     
  7. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Pardon amazing love?, that is not answering this question in the slightest, and is in fact offensive to the question.....

    As in you are stating that by saying it is great he died and repeating it over and over again....for some reason Christ is meant to like you for this....
    Can you give any reasons why? :angel2:
     
  8. MaddLlama

    MaddLlama Obstructor of justice

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    But, if he didn't die, then it would make no difference if he liked you or not, because there would be no Christianity.
     
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    He did die physically, points are:
    Potters field prophecy is to cut off inheritance and grace for 30 pieces of silver and to cut off 3 sects (shepherds) 1 re-establishes...soon after Israel as nation was tortured and forced to leave.....
    Naming Simon Stone = Stone laid before Joshua's/Yeshua's feet....
    Apocalypse of Abraham clearly relates why....
    There are lots more tallying scriptures across time lines, that make no sense otherwise......
     
  10. MaddLlama

    MaddLlama Obstructor of justice

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    Everybody dies. So what?
     
  11. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

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    Who says it is good to murder Christ? And did not Christ die for all men? Jesus Christ is very impartial to all men and women and is friend of all if they wish to be.
     
  12. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    God did. Here is how:

    p1= man commits original sin and is condemned
    p2= redemption is offered through the death of christ
    p3= Being with God is good but can only be through redemption
    p4=redemption is the dual act of torture and death of christ and subscription of man to the religion of christianty.

    c1= therefore God felt said, thinks it was good to murder christ.

    Also Jesus is not impartial to all men only to christians. The rest he damns to hell for their non-alliance to him.
     
  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Luk 9:23
    (23) And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross (symbolic of God; spoken before the crucifixion) daily, and follow me.

    Mat 12:50
    (50) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    So do you work for God full time then and have no wealth?
     
  14. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    The problem with being a finite human being is that people start to think they know more than God and reject His way of reconciling us to Himself and die in thier sins in foolishness and pride.
    Actually it DID please God 'to bruise Him', God saw His travail and was satisfied. In the middle east it is common when someone has put enough money down, the seller snatches it up, satisfied with the payment. God snatched Jesus up from the grave the third day, He was satisfied with the payment made for all the sins of all the world. We do not know all about the spirit realm, or about God, or why He had to do what He did, we only know that the wages of sin is death and Jesus paid them for us as a free gift. Twist it, twist God's attributes into something sick, and reject the good news, I only declare it to you.

    Isaiah 53 v.4 on:

    4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
     
  15. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

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    Not in my belief.
     
  16. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    Umm...yeah.

    Christ loves everybody.
     
  17. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Isa 53:12
    (12) Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Mat 9:13
    (13) But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Please explain where the “good news” comes from that you speak of, other then Pharisee doctrine about him being murdered?
    Also how the vine dressers parable says, anyone following that, will get nothing?
    So why would you believe in the slightest this is what you do, to be someone’s friend?
    So more bruises is “good news” is that what you mean?
     
  18. JayHawes

    JayHawes Active Member

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    Jesus was not muredered, he willingly gave himself as a sacrifice. He knew beforehand that he was going to be killed, he even told his disciples before it happened. Peter wanted to keep Jesus from giving himself, Jesus in response called him a devil, that is an adverasry (Matthew 16:21-23). Peter again when they came to take Jesus attacked to keep them from taking him, Jesus willing to go, commanded him to put up his sword (John 18:10,11) ).

    Following thus Jesus said:
    Mt 26:53 -Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

    Also note that God GAVE Jesus, he was not taken, and his death was known beforehand.

    1) The good news is the Gospel of Jesus summed up in this:

    Joh 3:16 -For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    1jo 1:9 -If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    2) The only vine dresser verse in the bible is found in Luke 13:7-9. Is this the verse you speak of? -- The Vine dresser must cut down the vine becuase it produces no fruit, and is worth nothing....this paralels to how God views mankind if it bares no fruit.

    IMPORTANT
    Jesus being bruised was not the good news. When we recieve good news we usually go running wildely becuase we are excited, like at the birth of a child, or a great surprise at Christmas, or something eles. The goodnews in Christianity is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ, where Mary and the other women ran to tell everybody that Jesus had risen, not long after Peter and John ran to find Jesus, once they knew, again they ran to tell others. His Ressurection is "goodnews" to us. Becasue we no longer have to stay dead (spiritually), but we can rise again (spiritually) to attain eternal life....that is the goodnews, not particuraly his bruising.
     
  19. JayHawes

    JayHawes Active Member

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    Robtex wrote- "Also Jesus is not impartial to all men only to christians. The rest he damns to hell for their non-alliance to him."

    __Rebutted by Scripture________________________________________________________
    Joh 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Joh 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    Joh 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (They condemn themselves, Jesus does not do it)

    Joh 3:19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    Joh 3:20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    Joh 3:21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
     
  20. Ðanisty

    Ðanisty Well-Known Member

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    It all seems kind of weird if you consider God all-powerful. Surely, he could have snapped his fingers and redeemed everyone who deserved it.
     
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