How can you justify torturing someone forever?

[tarasan]

somehow, this statement seems to negate the term "omnibenevolence," as well as "omnipotent." "What is God to do?" is another way of saying that, at some point, God throws up God's hands.

omnibenelovence means an all loving God, mimimally that Means that Go loves everyone, that means that it can be fulfilled in his love for mankind, that he permits them the time to make their choice rather than what they deserve. omnipotent isnt attacked here because I didnt deny that God could make them all believe, but rather he wont, because it would violate our free, so it isnt that he cant do it but he wont do it.

Let me ask you this: How long will God wait for us to make the correct decision?
How is waiting for us return home of our own volition oppressive?
Will you please explain to me how tossing one into an eternal oubliette of fire is in any way nurturing of relationship?
how much time and opportunity do we need? Apparently, only God knows, and, apparently, God's got all eternity to wait for us.

sending someone to hell is acknowledging that the person had control over their life, that ultimately they were truely able to choose God or their own way, with your theology they have no choice, ultimately they MUST choose God, he will have it no other way. so it is opressive, becuase ultiamtely there is no real choice, you are forced to do it regardless of what you wanted

 

[tarasan]

Then God designed us with the potential for sin; and constructed a Hell to condemn them forever. That is in no way "good".
The point remains that God designed humans to act a certain way (good people are capable of doing horrific deeds caused by anger, jealousy, vengence, insanity etc.) and then torture them for going a certain way (despite him knowing exactly which way they would end up going due to is omniscient nature) FOREVER. That is not justice, that is evil.

wow its like blaming the person who invented TNT for all the deaths TNT caused, Ultiamtely God made free will so that he could have a relationship with us, we were the ones who abused it, we were the ones who allowed ourselvse to be courpted by sin.

I could be mistaken here, but I thought Adam and Eve had no idea of right and wrong before they ate the forbidden fruit - thus they had no concept of morality, as before eating - they didn't know of anything but good.
Why God supposedly even planted that tree in the first place is beyond me.

they knew not to eat of it, so when they ultimately did it they commited the first sin, so they cannot be excused for ignorance. He planted it to give them the free will to reject him or not, ultiamtely you cant give them free will and then not allow them the right to choose now can you?

They have a sentence to serve, and they usually serve it. Eternal damnation is the most evil thing imaginable.

What if an atheist dedicated their life solely for the benefit of others and humanity - would they be sentenced to perpetual torture because they "sinned" by doubting Gods existence? I also don't understand why God would be so eager for the attention of mere human beings anyway.

I think you misunderstand why you go to hell, you go to hell because you have sinned, No one hasnt, Sin is a corrupting influence on humanity, like a rotten apple for an analogy. It isnt something that goes away, in order for it to go away you have to admit that you have done wrong and go to God for forgiveness, so that he can forgive you of your sin. If God were to just forgive you without your knowledge then you would try and be any different, or try to change yourself to sin less, so you need to acknowledge your sinfulness, and the person who cures you of it

 

[Raithie]

Jesus never said "believe these things about me." He said, "Do what I do."

Faith seems to play a pretty big part of the Bible.
Jesus says this, when a disciple asks a women to not annoint Jesus with such expensive oil: (I think anyway, I could be wrong - I am no way an expert on the Bible)
"The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me."

That's not something I would like to tell someone, after a "do as I do" line.

God is eager for relationship, not "the attention of mere human beings."

What do you mean by relationship, and not by attention? Prayer and worship is pretty imporant according to the church, and I don't see why such a higher being would be so interested in human worship and adoration.

I feel like we're getting a bit off topic here, however. So I'll leave it at that.

 

[sojourner]

omnibenelovence means an all loving God, mimimally that Means that Go loves everyone, that means that it can be fulfilled in his love for mankind, that he permits them the time to make their choice rather than what they deserve. omnipotent isnt attacked here because I didnt deny that God could make them all believe, but rather he wont, because it would violate our free, so it isnt that he cant do it but he wont do it.

If God loves everyone, why, then, is God's "justice" much harsher than, say, the state of Texas, who obviously does not love everyone?

ultimately they MUST choose God, he will have it no other way.

And this is different from:

I didnt deny that God could make them all believe, but rather he wont, because it would violate our free, so it isnt that he cant do it but he wont do it.

how, exactly?
"We MUST choose God, but we're not forced to choose God?"

sending someone to hell is acknowledging that the person had control over their life

Obviously, they don't have control, or God wouldn't be able to "send them" anywhere -- least of all hell.

So if God "won't do it," (as in "make" us believe), what benevolent thing, exactly, will God do?
[Hint: Wait until we all return home of our own volition.]

 

[sojourner]

Faith seems to play a pretty big part of the Bible.
Jesus says this, when a disciple asks a women to not annoint Jesus with such expensive oil: (I think anyway, I could be wrong - I am no way an expert on the Bible)
"The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me."

That's not something I would like to tell someone, after a "do as I do" line.

What do you mean by relationship, and not by attention? Prayer and worship is pretty imporant according to the church, and I don't see why such a higher being would be so interested in human worship and adoration.

I feel like we're getting a bit off topic here, however. So I'll leave it at that.

Gotcha. New thread on the fine distinctions between "belief" and "following," and "attention" and "relationship?"

 

[sojourner]

Sin is a corrupting influence on humanity, like a rotten apple for an analogy.

Didn't Jesus come to take away the sin of the world?

It isnt something that goes away, in order for it to go away you have to admit that you have done wrong and go to God for forgiveness, so that he can forgive you of your sin.

God's actions are dependent upon us. God is always Initiator. We are always responder.
God has already forgiven our sin. The trick is to recognize that paradigm and live into it. Jesus said, "turn your lives around; God's kingdom has come near. It just takes some of us longer thatn others to recognize it.

If God were to just forgive you without your knowledge then you would try and be any different, or try to change yourself to sin less,

That's why it's our job to do what Jesus did: proclaim the good news that God's Kingdom has come near -- that our sin is forgiven; now act like it!

 

[Raithie]

wow its like blaming the person who invented TNT for all the deaths TNT caused, Ultiamtely God made free will so that he could have a relationship with us, we were the ones who abused it, we were the ones who allowed ourselvse to be courpted by sin.

No, it's not. You're comparing humans to God.
God is supposedly all loving, all knowing and all powerful. Hence, he should be able to create anything and he should know every possible consequence and outcome of everything and everyone. I don't see why he would be content with sending so many people to eternal torture because he didn't do a good job in either creating them or leading them on to a better path.

they knew not to eat of it, so when they ultimately did it they commited the first sin, so they cannot be excused for ignorance. He planted it to give them the free will to reject him or not, ultiamtely you cant give them free will and then not allow them the right to choose now can you?

They knew God told them to eat it, but once again - they didn't know the concept between good and evil, so I don't see how they would have been aware of the implications of it.
Did God tell them that if they ate it, they would now be aware of evil and be capable of burning in Hell for eternity?
If God made humans, and hence sinners and evil - then his creation is his responsibility - and it is thoroughly unjust to condemn them because of his design.

If you mean a choice between sin and goodness, well then why did God create beings capable of sin anyway? And don't say free will -

Anyway, regardless of what they did - eternal damnation and torture does not justify anything! It's an absolute horrific concept! A God that creates such an option cannot be benevolent.

I think you misunderstand why you go to hell, you go to hell because you have sinned, No one hasnt, Sin is a corrupting influence on humanity, like a rotten apple for an analogy. It isnt something that goes away, in order for it to go away you have to admit that you have done wrong and go to God for forgiveness, so that he can forgive you of your sin. If God were to just forgive you without your knowledge then you would try and be any different, or try to change yourself to sin less, so you need to acknowledge your sinfulness, and the person who cures you of it

So the only reason you ask for forgiveness is to not go to Hell...? Are good deeds irrelevant if you don't ask for forgiveness for minor things, when it comes to Hell? And are you guaranteed a spot in heaven, presuming you ask for forgiveness?

 

[Raithie]

Gotcha. New thread on the fine distinctions between "belief" and "following," and "attention" and "relationship?"

Sure, fire away!

 

[tarasan]

Didn't Jesus come to take away the sin of the world?

yes but ultimately we have to accept him

God's actions are dependent upon us. God is always Initiator. We are always responder.
God has already forgiven our sin. The trick is to recognize that paradigm and live into it. Jesus said, "turn your lives around; God's kingdom has come near. It just takes some of us longer thatn others to recognize it.

ok tell me where is says in the bible that he has taken away the sin of the unbeliever?

That's why it's our job to do what Jesus did: proclaim the good news that God's Kingdom has come near -- that our sin is forgiven; now act like it!

indeed ask to be forgiven and turn your life around.

 

[tarasan]

If God loves everyone, why, then, is God's "justice" much harsher than, say, the state of Texas, who obviously does not love everyone?

well why cant sin be that bad? surely if your making that kind of a statement you must have fairly strong evidence that sin is trivial and meaningless.
how, exactly?
"We MUST choose God, but we're not forced to choose God?"

Obviously, they don't have control, or God wouldn't be able to "send them" anywhere -- least of all hell.

not true ultimately we have a choice we choose to either bleieve in god or turn our lives around or we choose to reject him, this is a choice, ultimately with yours however we have no choice, we are just drones and ultimately what we do is meaningless because ultiamtely we will end up in the same place, heck my whole life i could rape children and then with a broad face walk into heaven, its a sick concept there is justice in the world.

So if God "won't do it," (as in "make" us believe), what benevolent thing, exactly, will God do?
[Hint: Wait until we all return home of our own volition.]

he will let us make our own choices, and let our choices matter, rather than do what your suggesting and make us his own little pawns, what your saying is a horrible concept just as bad as teh hyper calvinists its disgusting.

 

[tarasan]

No, it's not. You're comparing humans to God.
God is supposedly all loving, all knowing and all powerful. Hence, he should be able to create anything and he should know every possible consequence and outcome of everything and everyone. I don't see why he would be content with sending so many people to eternal torture because he didn't do a good job in either creating them or leading them on to a better path.

its a choice he gave us meaning when he gave us a choice, if he hadnt we would have been nothing more than puppets, what kind of a relationship is it, when the person has no choice but to love you, its forcing yourself upon someone.

They knew God told them to eat it, but once again - they didn't know the concept between good and evil, so I don't see how they would have been aware of the implications of it.
Did God tell them that if they ate it, they would now be aware of evil and be capable of burning in Hell for eternity?
If God made humans, and hence sinners and evil - then his creation is his responsibility - and it is thoroughly unjust to condemn them because of his design.

tehy knew they would die if they ate it, have you read the bible? GOd didnt make sin the humans that he made from the dirt where humans with a perfect nature, its was them that chose to turn away. They turned away because God didnt want pawns is that so horrible, your saying it was wrong to give people free will.

If you mean a choice between sin and goodness, well then why did God create beings capable of sin anyway? And don't say free will -

too late its the reason and sorry if you dont like it but that is the case.

Anyway, regardless of what they did - eternal damnation and torture does not justify anything! It's an absolute horrific concept! A God that creates such an option cannot be benevolent.

So the only reason you ask for forgiveness is to not go to Hell...? Are good deeds irrelevant if you don't ask for forgiveness for minor things, when it comes to Hell? And are you guaranteed a spot in heaven, presuming you ask for forgiveness?

firstly Im sure you ahve excellent evidence to show that sin isnt worth eternal damnation after all you seem pretty certian that it isnt.

I have shown multiple times on this thread that omnibenelovence is satisfied through natural and supernatural grace, God didnt need to give us a way back or the life that we have, but he did, that is enough for omnibenelevence. and yes you are garenteed a spot in heaven if you ask for forgiveness and follow christ, and the bible says that everyone gets the opertunity. and yes good deeds are irrelevant, no matter how much good you do the bad stuff you have done still happened, only God can reverse that.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

last time I checked, someone who knowingly let's someone else suffer even though it's in their power to stop it, cannot be considered benevolent and certainly not omnibenevolent.

 

[tarasan]

last time I checked, someone who knowingly let's someone else suffer even though it's in their power to stop it, cannot be considered benevolent and certainly not omnibenevolent.

how can you be sure that God doesnt have a good reason?

you see when you make a statement like that you are presuming something, so tell me what your presuming and the evidence you have gathered to back that up.

 

[Raithie]

its a choice he gave us meaning when he gave us a choice, if he hadnt we would have been nothing more than puppets, what kind of a relationship is it, when the person has no choice but to love you, its forcing yourself upon someone.

Okay, I'll drop the imperfect human point (although I don't see why it's invalid) - because I want to get back to Hell.
If God is benevolent, and feels he must punish someone - how is subjecting them to eternal, irrevocable cruelty and torture in anyway suitable? And how does he still get away with "benevolent" attached to his name?
There seem to be much less evil ways to deal with it...

tehy knew they would die if they ate it, have you read the bible? GOd didnt make sin the humans that he made from the dirt where humans with a perfect nature, its was them that chose to turn away. They turned away because God didnt want pawns is that so horrible, your saying it was wrong to give people free will.

So God creates people, knows which people are going to "go the wrong way" (but creates them anyway), and then condemns them to eternal suffering?

too late its the reason and sorry if you dont like it but that is the case.

But a God being omniscient knows exactly who will end up sinning and hence going to Hell - so when he creates them - he is creating them to live in eternal misery and punishment.
He gives people freewill, and then punishes them eternally for using it.

firstly Im sure you ahve excellent evidence to show that sin isnt worth eternal damnation after all you seem pretty certian that it isnt.

Nothing is worth eternal damnation. I wouldn't ever condemn anyone to such an absolutely blatently unnecessary and horrific sentence. It's nothing but evil.
How would something like robbing a bank or lying possibly justify eternal torture and misery?

I have shown multiple times on this thread that omnibenelovence is satisfied through natural and supernatural grace, God didnt need to give us a way back or the life that we have, but he did, that is enough for omnibenelevence. and yes you are garenteed a spot in heaven if you ask for forgiveness and follow christ, and the bible says that everyone gets the opertunity. and yes good deeds are irrelevant, no matter how much good you do the bad stuff you have done still happened, only God can reverse that.

So I could bring a flamethrower to the local school, torch everyone - ask for forgiveness, and then go to Heaven? All while a perfectly good person, but who simply doesn't believe in God due to their questioning nature, gets subjected to perpetual torture? How is that possibly just?

It doesn't seem like God can reverse that - his answer seems to be pretty sadistic. He doesn't give you a second chance after death, or even have the decency to grant you non existance (which is more preferable than eternal torture). Instead, he opts for the most cruel, unforgiving option possible.

You don't seem to realise how evil the concept of Hell actually is.

 

[McBell]

wel firstly he did make us perfect, we chose to be imprefect when we chose sin

I still find it utterly amazing that people can say this with a straight face.

Do they not know just how stupid it makes them sound?

 

[McBell]

When God is concerned those two words more or less are interchangable

Really?
God is not literate enough to know the difference?

 

[McBell]

how can you be sure that God doesnt have a good reason?

Good point.
I mean, since you cannot prove he even exists....

you see when you make a statement like that you are presuming something, so tell me what your presuming and the evidence you have gathered to back that up.

I am presuming that what Christians say their god is and can do is true and accurate.
The same evidence you have that god even exists in the first place.

Are you perhaps questioning the truth and or accuracy of what you and your fellow Christians claim god is and does?

 

[Autodidact]

you want me to be frank?

because you chose it, every human being has turned away from God willingly, everyone who is going to hell CHOSE to go to hell, they CHOSE to reject him, and being angry at God for your choice is a little sad, its like blaming the police for going to jail.

If God failed to provide reasonable evidence for His existence, it's MY fault for choosing the wrong fairy tale?

And who said God was going to toture you? alot of christians believe he will just leave you alone with the knowledge that you rejected him, and his perfect love, and cut you off from him, which is what you wanted your entire life, which of course will cause you to suffer, others yes believe you will burn, but only because YOU ran into the flames, others think youll merely be destroyed, and forgotten.

all these fates are of your chosing, you chose to suffer and you dont have anyone else to blame, you can get angry and yell its not fair, but you chose it, not God.

Yes, you're right. The Bible is such an incoherent pile of gibberish that no two believers can agree on what it says. Oh, and you forgot the many who think God doesn't care whether I believe or not, as long as I'm a decent person. That's another popular choice.

 

[Autodidact]

actually Its our fault, we are the ones that broke the rules, heck if God was the tyrant that you wanted us to believe then why would he have given us a way back? he would have just wiped us all out,

newsflash--according to your myth system, He did wipe us all out, all but one family.

but he didnt he gave us all a chance to come back, and he gave us our whole lives to do so, so that no matter whatwe do during your lives we could always come back to him, nothing we could do would make our chance of forgiveness any less likely...... I mean would a tyrant do that? of course not!

Everyone has to accept the consequences of their actions, Im sorry that is just how it goes.

So too bad for you, poor person who had the temerity to use the brains God supposedly gave you!

 

[839311]

wel firstly he did make us perfect, we chose to be imprefect when we chose sin

How could a perfect being choose to be imperfect? Doesn't the story go that the devil deceived Eve? How could Eve be perfect if she was deceived? Wouldn't she have had perfect wisdom, and know that the devil was trying to trick her? Regarding that story, we weren't perfect. We were naive and foolish.