How can you justify torturing someone forever?

[Raithie]

I must say that I'm confused with some of the Christian responses in this thread - if God can justify torturing someone until the end of time (an infinite punishment for a finite crime) for acting the way he designed them (imperfect), then how is he an all loving, benevolent being?

It seems downright evil to me. There's nothing mysterious or good about it.

 

[tarasan]

I must say that I'm confused with some of the Christian responses in this thread - if God can justify torturing someone until the end of time (an infinite punishment for a finite crime) for acting the way he designed them (imperfect), then how is he an all loving, benevolent being?

It seems downright evil to me. There's nothing mysterious or good about it.

wel firstly he did make us perfect, we chose to be imprefect when we chose sin, also sin is an infinite crime, its like a tar or virus that enters you, it isnt just a one in a time act, it says with you.

 

[CarlinKnew]

wel firstly he did make us perfect, we chose to be imprefect

This silly meme that you repeated is so popular and so rarely examined by those who spread it. I'd like to spread a new meme that demonstrates now nonsensical yours is:

If "he" designed me, then my thoughts arise from "his" design.

 

[tarasan]

This silly meme that you repeated is so popular and so rarely examined by those who spread it. I'd like to spread a new meme that demonstrates now nonsensical yours is:

If "he" designed me, then my thoughts arise from "his" design.

no true at all, if free will is at all present then we most certianly can believe outside him, in the same respects that we can think outside our culture or family. Our culture/family in a sense "creates" our values and beliefs, yet as an individual I can choose to go against that, so why would God be so different?

 

[Raithie]

wel firstly he did make us perfect, we chose to be imprefect when we chose sin, also sin is an infinite crime, its like a tar or virus that enters you, it isnt just a one in a time act, it says with you.

He didn't make us perfect if we "chose sin" - if he is omniscient, he would have known the outcome anyway. It seems like he made deliberately faulty creations and then punished them for fulfilling their role.

Why would he Adam and Eve be punished before they knew the difference between right and wrong anyway?

But that's a sidetrack... to stick with the OP - I really don't see how any supposed good being could justify eternal torture, especially considering he made humans with the potential anyway. Eternal damnation doesn't even fix anything - once you're there, you're doomed forever, there's no room for repentence or anything. It's such a vicious and evil concept that I can't believe that anyone could preach it to others (children in particular).

 

[sojourner]

wel firstly he did make us perfect, we chose to be imprefect when we chose sin, also sin is an infinite crime, its like a tar or virus that enters you, it isnt just a one in a time act, it says with you.

You're mistaken. We were made good -- not perfect.

Now: What's your second point?

 

[sojourner]

I really don't see how any supposed good being could justify eternal torture, especially considering he made humans with the potential anyway. Eternal damnation doesn't even fix anything - once you're there, you're doomed forever, there's no room for repentence or anything. It's such a vicious and evil concept that I can't believe that anyone could preach it to others (children in particular).

I agree. it makes a mockery of grace and a shambles of God's kingdom.

 

[tarasan]

You're mistaken. We were made good -- not perfect.

Now: What's your second point?

When God is concerned those two words more or less are interchangable

 

[CarlinKnew]

no true at all, if free will is at all present then we most certianly can believe outside him, in the same respects that we can think outside our culture or family. Our culture/family in a sense "creates" our values and beliefs, yet as an individual I can choose to go against that, so why would God be so different?

Some people are so far gone that they are either unable or unwilling to mentally connect the dots. For everyone else:
If "he" designed me, then my thoughts arise from "his" design.

 

[tarasan]

He didn't make us perfect if we "chose sin" - if he is omniscient, he would have known the outcome anyway. It seems like he made deliberately faulty creations and then punished them for fulfilling their role.

Why would he Adam and Eve be punished before they knew the difference between right and wrong anyway?

But that's a sidetrack... to stick with the OP - I really don't see how any supposed good being could justify eternal torture, especially considering he made humans with the potential anyway. Eternal damnation doesn't even fix anything - once you're there, you're doomed forever, there's no room for repentence or anything. It's such a vicious and evil concept that I can't believe that anyone could preach it to others (children in particular).

actually their role wasnt no sin.... and making a creature free must have always had some good or bad points as with freedom they coudl always go against him, clearly God thought it was worth letting man chose for himself. and they werent puniched before they knew the difference between right and wrong.

you have time for repentance now, I think I lifetime to repent is incredibly kind considering we deserve to be punished anyway, and what would you say to a person who has killed children? should be allowed to come out of jail whenever they have repented?

 

[tarasan]

Some people are so far gone that they are either unable or unwilling to mentally connect the dots. For everyone else:
If "he" designed me, then my thoughts arise from "his" design.

Im sorry I dont understand this response could you elaborate?

 

[sojourner]

When God is concerned those two words more or less are interchangable

But God isn't what's concerned here. This concerns humanity -- not God. If we were perfect, we'd be ... God. Is that the argument you're making? That we're God?

 

[tarasan]

But God isn't what's concerned here. This concerns humanity -- not God. If we were perfect, we'd be ... God. Is that the argument you're making? That we're God?

acutally no a perfect human and a perfect god are two different things, like there would be a difference between a perfect Rock and chimpmunck, they have different requirements for being perfect.

we are not good we have fallen short of Gods will we deserve to be punished and god has bestowed upon us natural and supernatural grace to give us time and a way back to him, that is far more than what is deserved.

and yet you still kick up a fuss.

 

[sojourner]

acutally no a perfect human and a perfect god are two different things, like there would be a difference between a perfect Rock and chimpmunck, they have different requirements for being perfect.

we are not good we have fallen short of Gods will we deserve to be punished and god has bestowed upon us natural and supernatural grace to give us time and a way back to him, that is far more than what is deserved.

and yet you still kick up a fuss.

I'd argue that God made us perfectly human, but that's a far cry from the reality of perfection, itself. Only God is that perfection.

I'm not kicking up a fuss. I simply state that grace and love and forgiveness are far more powerful and reaching than you're giving them credit for. You state that God, who loves us, at some point throws up God's hands and says, "Oh well. I tried. That's about the best anyone can expect." Guess my beloved children will just have to burn for all eternity, because that's 'How the World Works" -- according to me. Guess I'll just have to get over it and move on."

you're forgetting that God will search for us until God finds us. You're further forgetting that God always chooses to turn from God's wrath and chooses forgiveness, instead. Additionally, you're forgetting that the entire Christ Event represented a radical shift in "How the World Works."

 

[Raithie]

actually their role wasnt no sin.... and making a creature free must have always had some good or bad points as with freedom they coudl always go against him, clearly God thought it was worth letting man chose for himself. and they werent puniched before they knew the difference between right and wrong.

Then God designed us with the potential for sin; and constructed a Hell to condemn them forever. That is in no way "good".
The point remains that God designed humans to act a certain way (good people are capable of doing horrific deeds caused by anger, jealousy, vengence, insanity etc.) and then torture them for going a certain way (despite him knowing exactly which way they would end up going due to is omniscient nature) FOREVER. That is not justice, that is evil.

I could be mistaken here, but I thought Adam and Eve had no idea of right and wrong before they ate the forbidden fruit - thus they had no concept of morality, as before eating - they didn't know of anything but good.
Why God supposedly even planted that tree in the first place is beyond me.

you have time for repentance now, I think I lifetime to repent is incredibly kind considering we deserve to be punished anyway, and what would you say to a person who has killed children? should be allowed to come out of jail whenever they have repented?

They have a sentence to serve, and they usually serve it. Eternal damnation is the most evil thing imaginable.

What if an atheist dedicated their life solely for the benefit of others and humanity - would they be sentenced to perpetual torture because they "sinned" by doubting Gods existence? I also don't understand why God would be so eager for the attention of mere human beings anyway.

 

[sojourner]

What if an atheist dedicated their life solely for the benefit of others and humanity - would they be sentenced to perpetual torture because they "sinned" by doubting Gods existence? I also don't understand why God would be so eager for the attention of mere human beings anyway.

Jesus never said "believe these things about me." He said, "Do what I do."
God is eager for relationship, not "the attention of mere human beings."

 

[tarasan]

I'd argue that God made us perfectly human, but that's a far cry from the reality of perfection, itself. Only God is that perfection.

Yes I agree and that is why I clarified my statement in my OP, utlimately to be truely purfect one must be God, but humans in a sense can also be perfect, but only to the extent that their nature allows.

I'm not kicking up a fuss. I simply state that grace and love and forgiveness are far more powerful and reaching than you're giving them credit for. You state that God, who loves us, at some point throws up God's hands and says, "Oh well. I tried. That's about the best anyone can expect." Guess my beloved children will just have to burn for all eternity, because that's 'How the World Works" -- according to me. Guess I'll just have to get over it and move on."

onmibenelovence is fully represented in natural Grace, God is perfectly loving and graceful merely by allowing the chance for all people to choose him, but ultimately if they dont want to choose him then what is God to do? Ultimately he is also a just God and so if people refuse to admit they are wrong then he must by his nature hold them to account. He isnt throwing up his hands, rather he is letting us make our decision for ourselves.

you're forgetting that God will search for us until God finds us. You're further forgetting that God always chooses to turn from God's wrath and chooses forgiveness, instead. Additionally, you're forgetting that the entire Christ Event represented a radical shift in "How the World Works."

seems like a direct opposite kind of oppression than the Calvinists, rather than God forcing some people to be saved so he can get an ego boost, he is actually a kind of "oppressive mommy" who forces those who dont want to love him too love him regardless.

Ultimately Both spit in the face of free will and make us seem more like Gods pets than someone who has a relationship with him.

Ultimately God loves us enough for us to make our own decisions for better or worse, and even has given us the time needed and the opertunity to decide, both of which he didnt have to do.

 

[tarasan]

Jesus never said "believe these things about me." He said, "Do what I do."
God is eager for relationship, not "the attention of mere human beings."

I am the way teh truth and the life no one gets to the father except through me....

ring a bell?

 

[sojourner]

if they dont want to choose him then what is God to do?

somehow, this statement seems to negate the term "omnibenevolence," as well as "omnipotent." "What is God to do?" is another way of saying that, at some point, God throws up God's hands.

Let me ask you this: How long will God wait for us to make the correct decision?

seems like a direct opposite kind of oppression than the Calvinists, rather than God forcing some people to be saved so he can get an ego boost, he is actually a kind of "oppressive mommy" who forces those who dont want to love him too love him regardless.

How is waiting for us return home of our own volition oppressive?

Ultimately Both spit in the face of free will and make us seem more like Gods pets than someone who has a relationship with him.

Will you please explain to me how tossing one into an eternal oubliette of fire is in any way nurturing of relationship?

Ultimately God loves us enough for us to make our own decisions for better or worse, and even has given us the time needed and the opertunity to decide, both of which he didnt have to do.

how much time and opportunity do we need? Apparently, only God knows, and, apparently, God's got all eternity to wait for us.

 

[sojourner]

I am the way teh truth and the life no one gets to the father except through me....

ring a bell?

Of course, but I don't see how it's cogent to your argument.