How can you justify torturing someone forever?

[tarasan]

What is the effect of the action?

a blemish, i guess would be a crude way of describing it, its something that sticks to you and drags you down.

Its something that we ourselves cannot get ride of.

 

[DeitySlayer]

a blemish, i guess would be a crude way of describing it, its something that sticks to you and drags you down.

Its something that we ourselves cannot get ride of.

So a finite action has an infinite consequence?

 

[tarasan]

So a finite action has an infinite consequence?

indeed you see how dangerous it is dont you? why did you think God went through all that trouble with jesus for something that was a big deal?

Sin is a big deal and in whatever form it comes in its bad bad news. thats why God had to send his Son to deal with it.

 

[Kerr]

So is it your responsibility to make sure your children turn out right or theirs? I mean did you fail if your children turn away from society? We are not machines, he made us with free will. BTW it isnt totally about right beliefs, you know how many Christians have conflicting beliefs with each other?

It is my responsibility as a parent to be a good parent and teach values to my kid, it is my childs responsibility to make the right choices... if I had a child, that is. But that was not what I was talking about. If God couldn´t handle the disobidience he knew would come, if he made a world that would crash if someone did it, then he was simply incompetent.

And yes you do reject salvation, You reject the things you dont believe in silly, like I reject hinduism, or Islam, I never believed in those things but doesnt mean I dont reject them, it doesnt mean I dont turn away from them.

We mean different things by rejecting. Rejecting sounds like... I know the truth, but I decide not to believe in it for this or that reason. That is not how it is.

I would say no, we are responsible for our actions, should a criminal get the right to blame society or their parents? no because ultiamtely it was their decision no one elses.

It is not the same thing. The society does not torture people for eternity. Nor does it regard people as criminals because of their beliefs or because they are different. At last not here.

However, I would like to add that the society is responsible for doing what it can to improve itself. This includes taking steps to prevent people from becoming criminals.

 

[DeitySlayer]

indeed you see how dangerous it is dont you? why did you think God went through all that trouble with jesus for something that was a big deal?

Sin is a big deal and in whatever form it comes in its bad bad news. thats why God had to send his Son to deal with it.

Horrific as Jesus' suffering was, others throughout history have been martyred in far more painful and torturous ways for their beliefs. It wasn't the biggest sacrifice that could have been given, especially noting that Jesus knew he was essentially God and therefore immortal, and therefore also knew that he would come back to life. He knew the pain would only be temporary. Others throughout history have gone to their deaths in worse ways for country or belief or the protection of their people, without knowing what would be on the other side.

 

[McBell]

Horrific as Jesus' suffering was, others throughout history have been martyred in far more painful and torturous ways for their beliefs. It wasn't the biggest sacrifice that could have been given, especially noting that Jesus knew he was essentially God and therefore immortal, and therefore also knew that he would come back to life. He knew the pain would only be temporary. Others throughout history have gone to their deaths in worse ways for country or belief or the protection of their people, without knowing what would be on the other side.

Which begs the question:

What did he actually sacrifice?
​

 

[McBell]

As I see it, torturing someone forever produces no good results. Torturing someone forever is the most evil thing imaginable. Nothing is worse than this. How do you reasonably justify torturing a being for all eternity? How do you reasonably justify the belief that a good god would do the most evil thing possible?

Guess that depends upon what they have done.
Someone messes with my kids and I can quite easily justify it.

 

[DeitySlayer]

Which begs the question:

What did he actually sacrifice?
​

Exactly.

 

[McBell]

you want me to be frank?

because you chose it, every human being has turned away from God willingly, everyone who is going to hell CHOSE to go to hell, they CHOSE to reject him, and being angry at God for your choice is a little sad, its like blaming the police for going to jail.

And who said God was going to toture you? alot of christians believe he will just leave you alone with the knowledge that you rejected him, and his perfect love, and cut you off from him, which is what you wanted your entire life, which of course will cause you to suffer, others yes believe you will burn, but only because YOU ran into the flames, others think youll merely be destroyed, and forgotten.

all these fates are of your chosing, you chose to suffer and you dont have anyone else to blame, you can get angry and yell its not fair, but you chose it, not God.

Ultimatums are bull ****.
ESPECIALLY when it is an allegedly all knowing thingy that issues it.

 

[DeitySlayer]

Ultimatums are bull ****.
ESPECIALLY when it is an allegedly all knowing thingy that issues it.

And especially when the proof for the all knowing thingy rests in a single book which is riddled with errors and incosistencies. It has good parts, but these are the result of human-created philosophies, not divine revelation.

 

[tarasan]

It is my responsibility as a parent to be a good parent and teach values to my kid, it is my childs responsibility to make the right choices... if I had a child, that is. But that was not what I was talking about. If God couldn´t handle the disobidience he knew would come, if he made a world that would crash if someone did it, then he was simply incompetent.


We mean different things by rejecting. Rejecting sounds like... I know the truth, but I decide not to believe in it for this or that reason. That is not how it is.


It is not the same thing. The society does not torture people for eternity. Nor does it regard people as criminals because of their beliefs or because they are different. At last not here.

However, I would like to add that the society is responsible for doing what it can to improve itself. This includes taking steps to prevent people from becoming criminals.

your first statement, for your right to choose God had to make sacrifices, and clearly he can handle the disobedience, hence hell, so i dont see your point, and how do you know he was incompetitent? that very presumptious, you have no idea the situation God was presented with or what the right decision was.

if you refer to my earlier posts I said God doesnt neccessairly torture his people, there are multiple interpretations of hell, and its not about what you believe, about repentence to God and admitting you have sinned, the rest is secondary, like I said it isnt about what you believe its about what you have done.

To your last point, God has..... it says in teh bible that he has written what is right and wrong on people hearts, he has already shown what is the right and wrong thing to do.....

 

[tarasan]

Horrific as Jesus' suffering was, others throughout history have been martyred in far more painful and torturous ways for their beliefs. It wasn't the biggest sacrifice that could have been given, especially noting that Jesus knew he was essentially God and therefore immortal, and therefore also knew that he would come back to life. He knew the pain would only be temporary. Others throughout history have gone to their deaths in worse ways for country or belief or the protection of their people, without knowing what would be on the other side.

indeed he was God therefore that sacrifice meant more than they others, they died for a view, God died for eveyone, he died alll people even though they didnt deserve it, that is what makes it special he wasnt fighting against anyone, he was for everyone.

 

[tarasan]

Which begs the question:

What did he actually sacrifice?
​

That depends alot on your theology, and hat kind of atonement you follow, some believe it was a sacrifice that sturred people into realising that what they done was wrong and therefore turn back to him

the most popular one nowadays is that God, paid for mankinds sins, and paid the price, and came out victorious.

but like I said there are about 6 main views on the issue, ive head the most popular one that I sited as being compared to cosmic child abuse, by evangelisic christians liek Steve Chalke, which has opened this whole issue up to debate again.

who knows in 30 years time we may agruing a completely different kind of atonement.

 

[tarasan]

Ultimatums are bull ****.
ESPECIALLY when it is an allegedly all knowing thingy that issues it.

no particularly especially when it comes to things like the doctrin of middle knowledge or the like.

Ultimately It comes down to you to make the choice, btw just so you know I dont believe it will solely be Christians who get into heaven, its all those who truthfully and honestly search for God.

 

[tarasan]

And especially when the proof for the all knowing thingy rests in a single book which is riddled with errors and incosistencies. It has good parts, but these are the result of human-created philosophies, not divine revelation.

I think Martin Luther was the one that said the scriptures where like a diamond in dirt or something like that.... im gonna have to find the exact quote but anyway, its about people trying to grapple with the fact that they were being singled out by the creator of the universe, and the bible is them trying to understand what is happening, and of course with human beings they probably added to it and the like, so it is up to us as the beleivers to read our bible and try to figure out the face of God.

 

[DeitySlayer]

its about people trying to grapple with the fact that they were being singled out by the creator of the universe.

Look at this link.

http://i.imgur.com/frLHu.jpg

In light of this immensity, of which we are merely an unbelievably insignificant floating rock in an insignificant corner of the Universe, in a totally unremarkable and rather small solar system which is in its entirety absolutely dwarfed by most stars, do you seriously think God, if he exists, actually cares about the sex lives and worship practices and inane ramblings of a handful of evolved primates?

 

[tarasan]

Look at this link.

http://i.imgur.com/frLHu.jpg

In light of this immensity, of which we are merely an unbelievably insignificant floating rock in an insignificant corner of the Universe, in a totally unremarkable and rather small solar system which is in its entirety absolutely dwarfed by most stars, do you seriously think God, if he exists, actually cares about the sex lives and worship practices and inane ramblings of a handful of evolved primates?

ok firstly that was really freakin small, I couldnt read anything on that!

ohhh and yeah definately i believe God takes an interest in what people do, ohhh and we are far rarer than you would believe, mostly because more galaxy clusters are too dangerous for life to probably to exist, and even in the kind of one we are in, there are only certian places that life could be safe, and of coruse you need certain kind of stars, distance etc. So yeah im not saying we are the only one but we are rather unique.

So yeah main point yeah I think God cares about what we do and what we are like, now if aliens do exist, then Im sure he cares about them as well, I dont see the strength of the arguement to be honest

 

[Kerr]

your first statement, for your right to choose God had to make sacrifices, and clearly he can handle the disobedience, hence hell, so i dont see your point, and how do you know he was incompetitent? that very presumptious, you have no idea the situation God was presented with or what the right decision was.

Actually I would say he can´t handle it if he allows for hell to exist. And the incompetence, well, it is just the picture many people paint of him. As a grumpy man with all the power in the world who .

if you refer to my earlier posts I said God doesnt neccessairly torture his people, there are multiple interpretations of hell, and its not about what you believe, about repentence to God and admitting you have sinned, the rest is secondary, like I said it isnt about what you believe its about what you have done.

Can atheists and people of other religions end up in heaven then?

To your last point, God has..... it says in teh bible that he has written what is right and wrong on people hearts, he has already shown what is the right and wrong thing to do.....

Appearently the ink he used did not stick, considering how much people argue about this.

 

[tarasan]

Actually I would say he can´t handle it if he allows for hell to exist. And the incompetence, well, it is just the picture many people paint of him. As a grumpy man with all the power in the world who .


Can atheists and people of other religions end up in heaven then?


Appearently the ink he used did not stick, considering how much people argue about this.

your first statement is i can definately see why he does, he gives people the right to choose their own destinies, but ultiamtely he has to give a consequence for bad behaviour, rebellion and evil. he has all the power but to use it would comprimise whatever freedoms he has given us.

I would say yes they can..... tentatively, so as not to give the wrong impression, there is a verse in Romans that says that if a person searches for God with all their heart then God will grant mercy and show himself to them, now to what extent that means is up for interpretation however, I would humbly say that I dont know who is going to hell, I cant comdem anyone to that place only God can, I can only preach his word and let God do the rest.

ohhh it did stick, people just tend to twist it, or make excusses, or try to fuss the lines, the basic principles are still there.

 

[Kerr]

your first statement is i can definately see why he does, he gives people the right to choose their own destinies, but ultiamtely he has to give a consequence for bad behaviour, rebellion and evil. he has all the power but to use it would comprimise whatever freedoms he has given us.

Define bad behaviour. If you mean murder and rape it would be one thing, if you mean people who are far from perfect and often does things they shouldn´t it is another. To be imperfect, to have issues, is not a crime.

Beyond that, it is not like people know what will bring them to hell and not and then chooses to do that.

I would say yes they can..... tentatively, so as not to give the wrong impression, there is a verse in Romans that says that if a person searches for God with all their heart then God will grant mercy and show himself to them, now to what extent that means is up for interpretation however, I would humbly say that I dont know who is going to hell, I cant comdem anyone to that place only God can, I can only preach his word and let God do the rest.

But someone who does not look for God but is a good person?

ohhh it did stick, people just tend to twist it, or make excusses, or try to fuss the lines, the basic principles are still there.

That can be discussed.