How can we know the truth?

[shema]

That's true

 

[Endless]

So did God sign his messages to us - or is it only us humans that sign our letters?

 

[Popeyesays]

What has been revealed as truth to the so called prophets is just hearsay to everyone else.

Not in the strict definition of "hearsay". If I testify that an individual said to me "Sure, I killed the SOB!" And I testify ONLY to that which I heard myself, that is not hearsay.
If I testify that Joe Blow told me that John Smith told HIM that John Smith said, "Sure, I killed the SOB!" THAT is hearsay, because Joe Blow is not present to testify what he heard himself. If Joe Blow is present to testify what John Smith told him, that isn't hearsay - catch the difference.

In my case there is no doubt what the Prophet wrote or said, because I have the authenticated statement - so it isn't hearsay to ME. If I tell you what the Prophet has said, that would be hearsay, BUT you coulod read the authenticated statements for yourself, which would NOT be "hearsay" but "first-hand".

I freely admit that the testimony of Jesus Christ is not so much authenticated, and might be construed as hearsay - since there are intermediate witnesses.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

But even after reading all of the Qu'ran what criteria are you going to use in order to be sure it is the truth from God and hasn't been made up by man?

That's the tough part.

All I can say is that from my perspective and life experiences, the New Testament has so many discrepancies and Christianity has so many influences by man, that I don't believe the teachings of the church to be the Word of God. Gnosticism (pre-Christian Christianity) was not subject to the politics of the Church and is "true" Christianity. I don't intend to offend any Christians, again, it's only my perspective, and I respect everyone's perspective.

So why the Quran? Only because of 20 years of searching, researching, and reading, with an open mind, have I come to that conclusion. Atheists have similar reasons for their conclusions and Christians have similar reasons for their conclusions. I consider myself a junior academic. I read for the value of education - I don't read to prove or disprove any belief system. And my reading has led me to my conclusions.

No one really knows what is the Truth of God, all we have is our beliefs, based on our life experience. To be 100% certain is not genuine. To not have an occassional question of faith is not human, and to deny it is a lie. Galileo said, "I don't feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, has intended us to forgo their use." So I try to look at the questions logically, while struggling with my sense of "faith."

 

[Popeyesays]

That's the tough part.
No one really knows what is the Truth of God, all we have is our beliefs, based on our life experience. To be 100% certain is not genuine. To not have an occassional question of faith is not human, and to deny it is a lie. Galileo said, "I don't feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, has intended us to forgo their use." So I try to look at the questions logically, while struggling with my sense of "faith."

Bravissimo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wish I could frubal you ten times running!
That is the only testament of faith ANYONE can make.

"The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul; and these two names -- the human spirit and the rational soul -- designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished, and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 317)

Regards,
Scott

 

[Nehustan]

Yes, so it is written. But let's be realistic, the buck stopped at Muhammed, being the Final Messenger, n'est pas? That was an awefully long time ago. What about the Bab? Joseph Smith? L.Ron Hubbard? Charles Manson? Jim Jones? David Koresh? It appears the play continues to this day.


EDIT: Please forgive my inclusion of the infamous with the illustrious. It is to make the point and is not intended as a comparrison.

I think he would be more likely to send (cause to BE) people like Newton, Faraday, Pascal, Pasteur, Watson and Crick, Einstein.......

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

Well actually I was stating that the Prophesies in the quran can easily be discredited, however even if they were true, How can you attest to the current day prophets who have prophesies, that come true? My father is a Bishop, and he has plenty of friends who are sent from God to prophesy. My point is the only way to know the true way of God is to get to know God and his word, Yes I have read the Quran, and can tell you what it says about everything. That is why I form the opinions that I do, because I have read all of the Abrahamic books and continue to study in them.

Excellent. Then I'm sure you've also used the same level of critique to question the teachings of the church, right? You can find millions of more ways to discredit the 5,000 versions of the Bible than you can to discredit the one version of the Quran.

I visit this forum for friendly, open-minded discussion. It's not my intent to preach my faith, nor do I want someone to proselytize to me. So please, take your Mission elsewhere.

 

[Quiddity]

That's the tough part.

All I can say is that from my perspective and life experiences, the New Testament has so many discrepancies and Christianity has so many influences by man, that I don't believe the teachings of the church to be the Word of God.

Comments like this only turns into a finger pointing match. Have you ever thought of asking someone of these discrepancies? Or was this something you just managed to do conclude based on your interpretation?

Gnosticism (pre-Christian Christianity) was not subject to the politics of the Church and is "true" Christianity. I don't intend to offend any Christians, again, it's only my perspective, and I respect everyone's perspective.

I'm not offended. I just hope you realize that you reject what you perceive to be Christianity. Whether it is Christianity is subject to discussion.

So why the Quran? Only because of 20 years of searching, researching, and reading, with an open mind, have I come to that conclusion. Atheists have similar reasons for their conclusions and Christians have similar reasons for their conclusions. I consider myself a junior academic. I read for the value of education - I don't read to prove or disprove any belief system. And my reading has led me to my conclusions.

Awesome. I hope you can share more of what you have found.

No one really knows what is the Truth of God, all we have is our beliefs, based on our life experience. To be 100% certain is not genuine. To not have an occassional question of faith is not human, and to deny it is a lie. Galileo said, "I don't feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, has intended us to forgo their use." So I try to look at the questions logically, while struggling with my sense of "faith."

That is why I believe that "faith builds upon reason, it does not eliminate it".

 

[YmirGF]

I think he would be more likely to send (cause to BE) people like Newton, Faraday, Pascal, Pasteur, Watson and Crick, Einstein.......

:clap

You left out Stephen Hawking, but I will let that pass. :bounce
I agree. "Revelation" has simply become more complex.

 

[Nehustan]

You left out Stephen Hawking, but I will let that pass. :bounce
I agree. "Revelation" has simply become more complex.

Oh I don't know I haven't entered the Quran in Numerical format (arabs used indian numerals!!!) into a massive computer using known mathematical/scientific formula as keys. It may end up having more secrets than we know....

To decipher one must only find a key....

(As a postscript YmirGF, I put down some of my readings (things I've perused) in a thread here, would love you to take a read at your leisure!!!)

 

[Popeyesays]

I have found a little paper, but i didn't examine.

FULFILLED PROPHECIES OF THE HOLY QURAN​

​

​

I can give you a longer list of scientific and technological prophecies by Baha`u'llah. The probelm is, of course, that scriptural prophecy must be interpreted and one man's interpretation is often another man's sheer fable.​

​

​

Prophecies for example:​

The explosion of technical and scientific knowledge and inventions in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.​

​

The development of nuclear weapons.​

​

The nature of the transmutation of elements.​

​

Dire peril for humanity because of those discoveries.​

​

The discovery that more complex elements evo9lve in nature by transmutation under the proper conditions.​

​

That planets are the neccesary accompaniment of the formation of stars.​

​

Space Travel.​

​

The nature of some cancers as communicable and contagious.​

​

The fruitless search for a "missing link">​

​

The non-existence of a mechanical ether.​

​

The breakdown of mechanical modeling for understanding nature.​

​

Expatiation and interpretation for any topic upon interest.​

​

Regards,​

Scott​

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

Comments like this only turns into a finger pointing match. Have you ever thought of asking someone of these discrepancies? Or was this something you just managed to do conclude based on your interpretation?

I'm not offended. I just hope you realize that you reject what you perceive to be Christianity. Whether it is Christianity is subject to discussion.

Awesome. I hope you can share more of what you have found.

That is why I believe that "faith builds upon reason, it does not eliminate it".

I don't intend there to be a finger-pointing match. And yes, I have discussed these discrepancies. I spent 12 years in catholic school and argued with the priests for all 12. Granted, it's only one perspective on Christianity, but I'm learning as I go. And yes, I do realize that what I reject is what I "perceive" to be Christianity, as I stated in the opening, "All I can say is that from my perspective and life experiences..."

Your statement, however, about my perception of Christianity, implies that there is a more accurate, "true" perception of Christianity of which I am yet aware. I'm not sure where you're going with this. Protestants sometimes claim that Catholics aren't really Christians because of the perceived idolatry, but does that negate the Catholic experience? Of course not. I'm not suggesting you're doing this, I'm just trying to understand your angle.

Respectfully,
IA-A

 

[shema]

Excellent. Then I'm sure you've also used the same level of critique to question the teachings of the church, right? You can find millions of more ways to discredit the 5,000 versions of the Bible than you can to discredit the one version of the Quran.

I visit this forum for friendly, open-minded discussion. It's not my intent to preach my faith, nor do I want someone to proselytize to me. So please, take your Mission elsewhere.

Why is it that you feel I am on a mission? I mean this a religious discussion forum, My God is very persistant, but never pushy. Yes I am sure that people have plenty of problems with the bible. However, We believe that in each process of making the bible, from the scribes, to the translators, even down to the publication of the King James Version, God was in every circumstance and penetrated the situations so deeply, The cards fell the way He wanted them to fall. I find that no one really understands True Christianity. All I read are predictable, natural, humanistic, and worldly views on true Christianity, When in my heart Im thinking, "so thats the reason, christianity is frowned upon. and 90% is due to people, not true to Christ creating destruction in his name. But that's the point, Jesus even predicted that this would happen:

Mathew 24:9
Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other.

so Im not preaching, its just that if someone makes a statement out of ignorance, for lack of a better word, and I just happen to have a more thorough source. that could help to fill in the void of that ignorance.

 

[Quiddity]

Your statement, however, about my perception of Christianity, implies that there is a more accurate, "true" perception of Christianity of which I am yet aware. I'm not sure where you're going with this. Protestants sometimes claim that Catholics aren't really Christians because of the perceived idolatry, but does that negate the Catholic experience? Of course not. I'm not suggesting you're doing this, I'm just trying to understand your angle.

Respectfully,
IA-A

We won't know until you share your experiences.

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

However, We believe that in each process of making the bible, from the scribes, to the translators, even down to the publication of the King James Version, God was in every circumstance and penetrated the situations so deeply, The cards fell the way He wanted them to fall. I find that no one really understands True Christianity.

That's where we differ, Shema. I don't believe God has decided on the Bible, humans did that. There are thousands of versions of the Bible. Which version did God provide to mankind? Which is the "authorized" version and which are false?

You have your beliefs, and I'm sure you have reasons for those beliefs. As you study the history of the canon, you find that people have selected certain books to be in the canon, then rejected some, then accepted others, then rejected some more. The Mormons have their latest version, which is quite different than yours. Whose is right?

You seem to be a literalist; an absolutist. That's fine, I'm sure you've thought it out logically. But to me, it seems as though God handed his Word to mankind, and mankind corrupted it. That's the only difference. You believe it's unaltered. I believe historical evidence suggests otherwise.

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

I find that no one really understands True Christianity.

.

What is true Christianity, Shema? You need to look back 2000 years to what Jesus preached to find True Christianity. Not sure where to find it? Start with the Nag Hammadi library and ask the Gnostics. They'll tell you everything you want to know about True Christianity. But then again, in your world of profound theological knowledge, you've probably already read the Gnostic scriptures in their depth and can expound all sorts of discrediting reasons why they're false, right?

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

We won't know until you share your experiences.

What experiences? If you mean my "life experiences," as in the previous post, I meant that generally, as in what everyone goes through. Everyone has different "life experiences," and mine have led me on a certain path, as yours have you.