How can the New Testament be even remotely correct?

[Voxton]

...When it comes to the message of the gospel, it is totally clear, i don't care how...

...Reason and logic are inferior to the wisdom of God, they do not penetrate to the soul of man like the word of God...

Well, hip, hip hooray for your dedication and strength of faith to all that enables people like Peter Popoff to make a living. I'm happy for you.

Now, please go donate some money, or otherwise demonstrate your faith and sincerity, and leave this debate to those of us who'd investigate these things in a rational, open-minded way.

"Reason and logic are inferior..." -- jeeebus. I can just imagine, if God existed, he'd be looking at this exchange, going "Waaaaa-- 'reason and logic is inferior...' -- and I let THESE people eat from the tree of knowledge?"

 

[Scott1]

"Reason and logic are inferior..." -- jeeebus. I can just imagine, if God existed, he'd be looking at this exchange, going "Waaaaa-- 'reason and logic is inferior...' -- and I let THESE people eat from the tree of knowledge?"

Can I get an amen?

It's sad that so many atheists I know have more (God given... forgive me ) wisdom than some theists on this forum.... what a strange, wonderful world.

 

[Sabio]

Well, hip, hip hooray for your dedication and strength of faith to all that enables people like Peter Popoff to make a living. I'm happy for you.

Now, please go donate some money, or otherwise demonstrate your faith and sincerity, and leave this debate to those of us who'd investigate these things in a rational, open-minded way.

"Reason and logic are inferior..." -- jeeebus. I can just imagine, if God existed, he'd be looking at this exchange, going "Waaaaa-- 'reason and logic is inferior...' -- and I let THESE people eat from the tree of knowledge?"

Voxton, God gave man free will to show his love, and man decided to eat from the tree of knowledge which you refer to against the wisdom and direction of God, this act brought sin and suffering into the world. But before they ate of the tree of knowledge, the man and woman had a "rational open minded discussion" with Satan, where Satan rationalized and said "has God said... shall you surely die... (if you eat from the tree)?" This is still the same question Satan is asking today, to plant just the smallest seed of doubt. "Has God said" (the New Testament) could be applied to this whole discussion. Please keep this in mind as you eat from the tree of knowledge, and hold reason and logic in higher esteem than God's wisdom.

Sabio

 

[Sabio]

Can I get an amen?

It's sad that so many atheists I know have more (God given... forgive me ) wisdom than some theists on this forum.... what a strange, wonderful world.

Scott, It appears that you do not truly understand wisdom. Is it wisdom to question the word of God's authenticity? Are you as a Catholic not concerned with the eternal destiny and souls of those who do not believe on this thread?

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Sabio

 

[tkdrocks]

Scott, It appears that you do not truly understand wisdom. Is it wisdom to question the word of God's authenticity? Are you as a Catholic not concerned with the eternal destiny and souls of those who do not believe on this thread?

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Sabio

Well, isn't that just dandy. Here we have a DEBATE forum that requires logic and reason and we have now been invaded by those who want to use the Bible to prove the Bible is true.

Please, if you do not have a persuasive argument to go along with your reference (Biblical or otherwise), stay on the sidelines. Anyone can cut and paste verses or references. Let's polish those debate skills folks.

 

[Scott1]

Scott, It appears that you do not truly understand wisdom.

Well, I would offer that you are the one who lacks understanding:

God is truth, so why should truth exclude logic and reason?

True wisdom does not need to hide from logic and reason.

Is it wisdom to question the word of God's authenticity?

Why yes, it is.... God did not make me a "love robot"... he made me a rational being who seeks truth and questions all things.

True faith does not doubt the outcome of such questioning.... your attempts at piety are betrayed by your fear that somehow human intelligence will prove God "wrong"... far from it... I do believe I'm more prepared to discuss the Bible with non-Christians because I can do more than quote scripture and say "just have faith!".

Are you as a Catholic not concerned with the eternal destiny and souls of those who do not believe on this thread?

Kinda ignorant question, I must say.... you're going a bit heavy on the preaching... I'd advise against that in the future.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Read it again, Sabio.... FOOLS despise wisdom and instruction.... FOOLS despise logic and reason.... FOOLS blindly follow and question nothing.

 

[Voxton]

Sabio -> Ignore list. Sorry.

 

[Sabio]

Well, I would offer that you are the one who lacks understanding:

God is truth, so why should truth exclude logic and reason?

True wisdom does not need to hide from logic and reason.
Why yes, it is.... God did not make me a "love robot"... he made me a rational being who seeks truth and questions all things.

True faith does not doubt the outcome of such questioning.... your attempts at piety are betrayed by your fear that somehow human intelligence will prove God "wrong"... far from it... I do believe I'm more prepared to discuss the Bible with non-Christians because I can do more than quote scripture and say "just have faith!".
Kinda ignorant question, I must say.... you're going a bit heavy on the preaching... I'd advise against that in the future.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Read it again, Sabio.... FOOLS despise wisdom and instruction.... FOOLS despise logic and reason.... FOOLS blindly follow and question nothing.

Scott,

Not withstanding your opinions of me personally...(I expect this, as Jesus said the world would hate us Christians just as it hated Him, His word is a huge stumbling block for the world even though it is the good news unto salvation).

I've read back through your comments on this thread and tried to determine what your position is on the New Testament being true or false? What exactly do you believe on this topic? Do you believe the NT is true? Accurate? Useful for teaching and reproof? Is there any evidence that could convince you?

Sabio

 

[Sabio]

Actually, gentlemen, as you can not prove a truth of the Bible, why would we accept an unproven work. You just can't "transfer" faith.

It however does not have harmony on almost any level that is accepted by Christians

We know, Victor, that numbers of people can as easily believe a myth. The numbers makes no postive statement for any truth in the Bible

I for one, Sabio, have great peace of mind in disregarding the theology of the Bible. I find it a work of humans with it's only "proof" provided by your personal revelation mainly for your own personal benefit.

Pah, How would you prove any truth, by scientific means?

Jesus fufilled at least 29 different prophecies that were fortold of Him at least 1000 years before He lived. The mathmatical probability of Jesus fulfilling 1 of these prophecies has been estimated at ((10 to the 62nd power) to 1). So on a human level Jesus did the impossible.

Jesus fufillment of these prophecies was not only recorded in the Bible, many were recorded by Josephas a well regarded secular historian of that time period.

Another method to prove truth is the model we use in our court system, the testimony of witnesses. Jesus had 12 apostles who were witnesses, and gave their accounts of the case in various writings which we call the New Testament. Also 11 of these witnesses went to their death (terrible deaths) for holding to these testimonies. A man will not die for what he knows to be a lie, let alone 11 men all dying for the same lie.

So here are but two methods which are routinely used to proof truth by "modern" man.

Pah, who do you believe Jesus is? Is He who He says He is, or is He a liar?

Sabio

 

[jeffrey]

Whether or not you believe in God, whether or not you believe Jesus was real, the NT is a wonderful book filled with wisdom. I wish some people would try reading it without trying to find fault. Read the stories. Like where when they brought the adulteress to Jesus, trying to trap him. His reply "He who is without sin cast the 1st stone." How many of us talk about other people, run them down, when we are not perfect ourselves. I know I have. And It's wrong. Whether you believe in God or not, it's wrong. The book of James. It says don't run other Christians down, but that's happening in this thread. The over all concept of the NT is love everyone, hate no one. What's so wrong with that?

 

[Pah]

Pah, How would you prove any truth, by scientific means?

By evidence that passes the best criterian of truth. That's directly applicable to logic and reason. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/article.php?a=35 and by the scientific method where it is material.

Jesus fufilled at least 29 different prophecies that were fortold of Him at least 1000 years before He lived. The mathmatical probability of Jesus fulfilling 1 of these prophecies has been estimated at ((10 to the 62nd power) to 1). So on a human level Jesus did the impossible.

Jesus exactly forefilled no prophecy.

Jesus fufillment of these prophecies was not only recorded in the Bible, many were recorded by Josephas a well regarded secular historian of that time period.

You are grossly misinformed. But feel free to provide the citation in Josephas's works (there are available on line).

Another method to prove truth is the model we use in our court system, the testimony of witnesses. Jesus had 12 apostles who were witnesses, and gave their accounts of the case in various writings which we call the New Testament. Also 11 of these witnesses went to their death (terrible deaths) for holding to these testimonies. A man will not die for what he knows to be a lie, let alone 11 men all dying for the same lie.

No apostle wrote of his "eyewitness testimony" - not one.

The courts, by the way, have found witness testimony to be unreliable and prefer, instead, the evidence forensics has to offer - science wins again.
.

... Pah, who do you believe Jesus is? Is He who He says He is, or is He a liar?

Sabio

A legend, a myth, an unhistorical manifestation of a cult departing from the old covenent. The fictional Jesus was not a liar but his authors just might be.

 

[Pah]

Whether or not you believe in God, whether or not you believe Jesus was real, the NT is a wonderful book filled with wisdom. I wish some people would try reading it without trying to find fault. ...

I agree that there is wisdom and a guide to personal life contained in the Bible. But, as in any other work, I reserve the intellectual right to bring forth critisism

 

[blueman]

Well, hip, hip hooray for your dedication and strength of faith to all that enables people like Peter Popoff to make a living. I'm happy for you.

Now, please go donate some money, or otherwise demonstrate your faith and sincerity, and leave this debate to those of us who'd investigate these things in a rational, open-minded way.

"Reason and logic are inferior..." -- jeeebus. I can just imagine, if God existed, he'd be looking at this exchange, going "Waaaaa-- 'reason and logic is inferior...' -- and I let THESE people eat from the tree of knowledge?"

I will continue to participate with reason and logic for as long as I so please. You still have not, in a rational and logical way, addressed the impact of Jesus on society today and please attempt to do it in absence of the speculative jibberish you usually relay in your posts.

 

[blueman]

Well geee... thanks for the sermon....
I'm happy you feel that way... I do as well... but we're not here to give personal testimony... you are in a discussion with people who don't have faith in God and the best you can do is "You may not be sure, but I am".... again... fabulous... but don't think this holier-than-thou rhetoric will help you explain your faith to anyone.

Good luck.
Scott

Scott, I think I explained the faith extremely well in a previous post on this thread, regarding the impact of Jesus on society today. I have yet to a logical explanation regarding how someone, who ony ministered for 3 1/2 years, can have such a major impact on the world some 2000 years later. I have yet to get a logical response regarding that question from atheist or non-believers.

 

[jeffrey]

I agree that there is wisdom and a guide to personal life contained in the Bible. But, as in any other work, I reserve the intellectual right to bring forth critisism

Pah, you have the right to burn the Bible if you wish. No one in this forum is going to convince you that God exists, just as no one in this forum will convince myself that God does not exist. And if you are right and he does not exist, when we die, that's the end of it, and no one will be able to gloat. But if I am right and God does exist, ...... Wait a minute. I'm a Christian and still will not be able to gloat! UGH!

 

[blueman]

I agree that there is wisdom and a guide to personal life contained in the Bible. But, as in any other work, I reserve the intellectual right to bring forth critisism

Pah is absolutely right that he has the right to criticize and question the validity of the Bible or anything else for that matter. But I still have not received a logical and rational explanation on the impact of Jesus, if you truly believe Him to be a mythical figure, on the world today, without sounding highly speculative. I want an objective opinion.

 

[Sabio]

Whether or not you believe in God, whether or not you believe Jesus was real, the NT is a wonderful book filled with wisdom. I wish some people would try reading it without trying to find fault. Read the stories. Like where when they brought the adulteress to Jesus, trying to trap him. His reply "He who is without sin cast the 1st stone." How many of us talk about other people, run them down, when we are not perfect ourselves. I know I have. And It's wrong. Whether you believe in God or not, it's wrong. The book of James. It says don't run other Christians down, but that's happening in this thread. The over all concept of the NT is love everyone, hate no one. What's so wrong with that?

Good points here!

I offer all of my comments in Love, even though some may be written to other Christians on the thread with the intent of reproof, because I care. We are taught in the scriptures to help our wayward brothers get back on the straight and narrow, this is not my teaching, it is God's command for me to obey. Reproof and correction is not meant to tear a brother down, it is meant to keep him from straying so far from the flock that he can no longer hear the Shepard's voice...

We are called by god as Christians to "prefer one another" over non-Christians.

A Christian that publicly states his preference for Athiests over Christians should spend some time with God, searching his own heart, and re-examining the basis of his belief.

The bottom line on these "debates" is that it really does not matter what "we" (Christians) think, what matters is what God thinks, for he holds the power of life and death.

Sabio

 

[tkdrocks]

Pah, How would you prove any truth, by scientific means?

Jesus fufilled at least 29 different prophecies that were fortold of Him at least 1000 years before He lived. The mathmatical probability of Jesus fulfilling 1 of these prophecies has been estimated at ((10 to the 62nd power) to 1). So on a human level Jesus did the impossible.

The prophecies mentioned are about as clear as Nostradamus. Would you give him the same credit? In other words, they can be very loosely interpreted.

Jesus fufillment of these prophecies was not only recorded in the Bible, many were recorded by Josephas a well regarded secular historian of that time period.

I think this could be topic by itself. I have read very little, but it seems that Josephus was involved in the politics of the time and his works may have been edited after the fact. I have not done the research and do not claim to be an expert. This is just my impression after doing some reading.

Another method to prove truth is the model we use in our court system, the testimony of witnesses. Jesus had 12 apostles who were witnesses, and gave their accounts of the case in various writings which we call the New Testament. Also 11 of these witnesses went to their death (terrible deaths) for holding to these testimonies. A man will not die for what he knows to be a lie, let alone 11 men all dying for the same lie.

I think that we have already established that these were NOT eyewitness accounts (none of them). To state otherwise would be to ignore what has already been posted. In the future, please read previous postings before posting dogmatic talking points.

People die for religious beliefs all the time. Buhdists are still being martyred every day in Tibet. Does that make their belief more valid?

So here are but two methods which are routinely used to proof truth by "modern" man.

Pah, who do you believe Jesus is? Is He who He says He is, or is He a liar?

Sabio

I will go along with Pah on this one: Legend.

 

[Sabio]

By evidence that passes the best criterian of truth. That's directly applicable to logic and reason. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/article.php?a=35 and by the scientific method where it is material.

Jesus exactly forefilled no prophecy.

You are grossly misinformed. But feel free to provide the citation in Josephas's works (there are available on line).

No apostle wrote of his "eyewitness testimony" - not one.

The courts, by the way, have found witness testimony to be unreliable and prefer, instead, the evidence forensics has to offer - science wins again.
.

A legend, a myth, an unhistorical manifestation of a cult departing from the old covenent. The fictional Jesus was not a liar but his authors just might be.

You are misinformed here.

The Apostles wrote their eyewitness testimonies in the four Gospels of Mathew , Mark, Luke, John, as well as other writings througout the NT. These have all stood the test of time and converted millions to Christianity during the lsat 2 thousand years.

Here are some of the Prophecies Jesus fulfilled for you to study and respond to:
http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

You have not given any backup data to support your claims, please provide for examination.

Sabio

 

[Pah]

Pah is absolutely right that he has the right to criticize and question the validity of the Bible or anything else for that matter. But I still have not received a logical and rational explanation on the impact of Jesus, if you truly believe Him to be a mythical figure, on the world today, without sounding highly speculative. I want an objective opinion.

My opinion IS objective to you though it may be subjective to me. But I would refer you to the works of Joseph Campbell for an exhaustive treatment of myth.