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How can the New Testament be even remotely correct?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Mathematician, Jul 5, 2005.

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  1. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    So the bottom line to this WHOLE debate, is your belief or disbelief in the Power of God.

    If you don't believe that God is all that powerful, then there is no way for the scriptures to be valid.

    However, if you believe that God created this world, and is responsible for the earth's spin, then a simple book ain't that much of a stretch.
     
    #201 Scuba Pete, Jul 12, 2005
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  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Well said.:)
     
    #202 michel, Jul 12, 2005
  3. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    This is figurative. The two accounts in Genesis are a spiritual creation and a physical one. Everything was created spiritually first, and then physically. Adam and Eve were one being when originally created, and then separated. God has said that the man is nothing without the woman to Him. They were perfect when first created, both man and woman together. In the physical creation Adam was created first.

    The Old Testament has come down to us with many problems, though. The very first word in the O.T. is wrong. It says berosheit bara Elohim, but the baith was added by designing men who sought to change the scripture to support their doctrine. Bara is also severely misunderstood. Some say it means creation ex nihlo, but this Hebrew word has always meant a creation from matter that already existed. It really means to fashion or to form.
     
    #203 dan, Jul 12, 2005
  4. Sabio

    Sabio Active Member

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    This is an interesting theory, where is the data to back it up?

    Sabio
     
    #204 Sabio, Jul 12, 2005
  5. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    I wonder if there is any data to backup either of the stories
     
    #205 Pah, Jul 12, 2005
  6. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    This is the only reference I seem to be able to find;


    Joseph Smith's Translation Of Genesis 1:1by Gerald Sigal

    ....................."Acceptance of the Bible by the Mormon Church is qualified by a statement credited to Joseph Smith and which now appears in article eight of the Mormon Articles of Faith, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly." Joseph Smith is also quoted as saying, "I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors."1 Proclaiming belief in the Bible as originally written, as opposed to a corrupt contemporary version, assumes a knowledge of the original biblical text. As such, was Smith able to reestablish the "original" biblical text or, at least, the extent to which the Bible is "translated correctly"? Perhaps the best way to test his knowledge and abilities is to study his textual criticism of Genesis 1:1. Joseph Smith said:
    I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the Bible. I will make a comment on the very first sentence of the history of creation in the Bible- Berosheit. I want to analyze the word. Baith--in, by, through, and everything else. Rosh--the head. Sheit--grammatical termination. When the inspired man wrote it, he did not put the Baith there. An old Jew, without any authority, added the word. He thought it too bad to begin to talk about the head! It read first, "The head one of the Gods brought forth the Gods." That is the true meaning of the words. Baurau signifies to bring forth. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the learned man of God. Learned men can teach you no more than what I have told you. Thus, the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand style."......................

    http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/Mormons/mormongenesis.html:)
     
    #206 michel, Jul 12, 2005
  7. Sabio

    Sabio Active Member

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    Pah, Here is some more backround data for your study, more proof that Jesus did in fact fulfill prophecies, which was mathematically impossible for a man to do. So Jesus must be who He says He is, The Son of God, The Savior of Man.

    Sabio


    One Type—The Messianic Prophecies

    Of these prophecies, the most striking examples are the predictions about an “anointed one” (“Messiah” in Hebrew) who was to arrive in the future. About 4 BC, a miraculous event occurred—a boy named Jesus was born to a virgin named Mary. You can read His story in the book of Luke. Starting at age 30, Jesus fulfilled more and more of these prophecies written about the Messiah. His fulfillment of these prophecies was very spectacular: Jesus gave sight to the blind, made the lame walk, cured those who had leprosy, gave the deaf hearing, and raised people from the dead! These miracles and others were done many times in front of thousands of witnesses for three years. About 30 AD, Jesus was crucified (a prophecy) and died (a prophecy). Three days later he rose from the dead (another prophecy), after which He was seen by over 500 witnesses. Since these prophecies were written down at least 400 years before they happened, there is no doubt that the Bible’s writers were inspired supernaturally—by God. To examine these prophecies yourself, click on the link below.

    http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml
     
    #207 Sabio, Jul 13, 2005
  8. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Sabio,

    Regarding the "prophecies" from http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml

    Gen 3:15 doen not mention a Messiah it talks about the relation of a "fallen" husband and wife Prophecy is wrong

    Gen 12:3 speaks of Abraham and are the words of God, not a prophet Prophecy is wrong

    Gen 18:18 speaks of Abraham and are the words of God, not a prophet Prophecy is wrong

    Gen 49:10 The scepter passed from Jacob Prophecy is wrong

    Deuteronomy 18:15-19 speaks of priests and Levites Prophecy is wrong

    I'm not going to go through any more of the garbage from that site. If you have a prophecy that is exactly forefilled by Christ - let me know.
     
    #208 Pah, Jul 13, 2005
  9. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    What kind of data would convince you that it's true?
     
    #209 dan, Jul 13, 2005
  10. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    the holy spirit made sure that those who wrote the bible were recording fact.
     
    #210 chuck010342, Jul 13, 2005
  11. Sabio

    Sabio Active Member

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    The quotes from the Bible that support your theory of the seperation of spiritual and material creation.

    Thanks

    Sabio
     
    #211 Sabio, Jul 14, 2005
  12. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    :)
    Not quite on that point, but this is interesting (just an extract)
    The two creation accounts

    What is the relationship between Jesus and the creation? Lately I was
    reading an interesting book entitled, "Answers to tough questions skeptics
    ask about the Christian faith." by Josh Mc Dowell and Don Stewart. Published
    by Here's Life Publishers, Inc. Beginning on page 170 we read, "Throughout
    the history of the church, various portions of the Holy scriptures have been
    interpreted, analyzed, questioned, dissected and attacked, and sometime
    dismissed, both by theologians and others. Whenever there is a passage of
    Scriptures that is difficult to explain or understand at first reading, or
    that seems to contradict some scientific fact, or in some way poses an
    apparent difficulty to the occidental, modern intellect, somebody, somewhere
    erects a theory to try to resolve the seeming difficulty. Just such a
    situation exists with regard to chapter 1 and 2 of the book of Genesis,
    which are alleged by many commentators to be two contradictory accounts of
    creation.

    "According to the theory of the critics, the author of the second account
    (Genesis 2:4 2:5 had no prior knowledge of the first account in Genesis 1:1-
    2:4 and when they are joined together they contain hopeless contradictions.
    James sums up the position of the critical school quite strongly: `When it
    is realized that there are two distinct creation stories in Genesis
    belonging to two different periods and derived from two different sources,
    inconsistency becomes intelligible. That it exists at all, however, is
    sufficient to discredit a theory of divine inspiration that is obviously out
    of accord with the facts.'........................

    http://www.bibleman.net/two_creation_accounts.htm
     
    #212 michel, Jul 14, 2005
  13. Sabio

    Sabio Active Member

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    Pah, Please do not reject Jesus, He loves you more than you can understand. He is the Son of God. He gave His life so that you could have freedom and eternal life. He paid the ransom for your soul. Please accept Him and His sacrifice.

    In the name of Jesus I pray that the spirit which decieves you would be bound and silenced, and that God's Holy Spirit would minister to you and confirm the truth of the Holy scriptures.

    Your a tough one Pah, but I still love you!

    Sabio

    "The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) "
    Prophecied: Genesis 3:15
    Jesus Fulfilled: Galatians 4:4

    "The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed"
    Prophecied: Genesis 12:3; 18:18
    Jesus Fulfilled: Acts 3:25,26

    " The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah"
    Prophecied: Genesis 49:10
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33

    "The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses"
    Prophecied: Deuteronomy 18:15-19
    Jesus Fulfilled: Acts 3:22,23

    "The Messiah will be the Son of God "
    Prophecied: Psalm 2:7
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22

    "The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected)"
    Prophecied: Psalm 16:10,11 and 49:15
    Jesus Fufilled: Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32

    "The Messiah crucifixion experience"
    Prophecied: Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies—not all listed here)
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30

    "The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked"
    Prophecied: Psalm 22:7
    Jesus Fulfilled: Luke 23:11,35-39

    "The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet"
    Prophecied: Psalm 22:16
    Jesus Fulfilled: Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
    John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27

    "The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death)"
    Prophecied: Psalm 22:17 and 34:20
    Jesus Fulfilled: John 19:31-33,36

    "Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing"
    Prophecied: Psalm 22:18
    Fulfilled: Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24

    "The Messiah will be accused by false witnesses"
    Prophecied: Psalm 35:11
    Fulfilled: Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57

    "The Messiah will be hated without a cause"
    Prophecied: Psalm 35:19 and 69:4
    Fulfilled: John 15:23-25

    "The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend"
    Propecied: Psalm 41:9
    Fulfilled: John 13:18,21

    "The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God)"
    Prophecied: Psalm 68:18
    Jesus Fulfilled: Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22 . .

    "The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink"
    Prophecied: Psalm 69:21
    Fulfilled: Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30

    "Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah"
    Prophecied: Psalm 72:10,11
    Fulfilled: Matthew 2:1-11

    "The Messiah is a “stone the builders rejected” who will become the “head cornerstone”
    Prophecied: Psalm 118:22,23 and Isaiah 28:16
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 21:42,43; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8

    "The Messiah will be a descendant of David"
    Prophecied: Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16
    Jesus Fulfilled: Luke 1:32,33

    "The Messiah will be a born of a virgin"
    Prophecied: Isaiah 7:14
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35

    "The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee"
    Prophecied: Isaiah 9:1-7
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 4:12-16

    "The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc."
    Prophecied: Isaiah 35:5-6
    Jesus Fulfilled: Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47

    "The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon"
    Prophecied: Isaiah 50:6
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31

    "The “Gospel according to Isaiah”
    Prophecied: Isaiah 52:13-15:12
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John

    "People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah)"
    Prophecied: Isaiah 53:1
    Jesus Fulfilled: John 12:37,38

    "The Messiah will be rejected"
    Prophecied: Isaiah 53:3
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 27:20-25; Mark 15:8-14; Luke 23:18-23; John 19:14,15

    "The Messiah will be killed"
    Prophecied: Isaiah 53:5-9
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30

    "The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers"
    Prophecied: Isaiah 53:7
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14

    "The Messiah will be buried with the rich"
    Prophecied: Isaiah 53:9
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42

    "The Messiah will be crucified with criminals"
    Prophecied: Isaiah 53:12
    Jesus Fufilled: Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33

    "The Messiah is part of the new and everlasting covenant"
    Prophecied: Isaiah 55:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:31-34
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13

    "The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf)"
    Prophecied: Isaiah 59:16
    Jesus Fulfilled: Hebrews 9:15

    "The Messiah has two missions"
    Prophecied: Isaiah 61:1-3 (first mission ends at “. . . year of the LORD’s favor”)
    Jesus Fufilled: First mission: Luke 4:16-21; Second mission: to be fulfilled at the end of the world

    "The Messiah will come at a specific time"
    Prophecied: Daniel 9:25-26
    Jesus Fulfilled: Galatians 4:4 and Ephesians 1:10

    "The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem"
    Prophecied: Micah 5:2
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7

    "The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey"
    Prophecied: Zechariah 9:9
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 21:1-11

    "The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver"
    Prophecied: Zechariah 11:12,13
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10

    "The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples"
    Prophecied: Zechariah 13:7
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 26:31,56

    "The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority"
    Prophecied: Malachi 3:1
    Jesus Fulfilled: Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45
     
    #213 Sabio, Jul 14, 2005
  14. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    I know I'm entering this disscussion a little late, and I only read GeneC's first post-

    Matthew, Mark, Luke and John didn't have to remember anything. They were inspired by God, meaning God gave them knowledge of what to write. That's where the phrase "His inspired Word" comes from.

    The New Testament is quite reliable. I could go on and on, but here's a few facts:

    After the Apostles had finished the New Testament, and men began to copy it into other manuscripts, there were certain rules for these scribes to follow. The rules were nt set down by God, but the scribes followed them nonetheless. Now each scribe knew exactly how many words, consonants, and vowels were in each chapter of each book. They also knew what the middle word of each chapter was, and what the middle letter was. If the scribe messed up just one phrase, or even just spelled it wrong, they would know after they counted the above stuff in each chapter. If just one letter was wrong, the scribes would burn the entire copy and start over. That is how we know that we have accurate copies today.

    The following facts regarding the accuracy of the Bible are going to be very vague because I read them out of a book some time ago (see The New Evidance)

    In a certain cave somwhere in the middle east back in like the early 60's, a shepard boy found several very old jars. Upon further investigation, it was found that the jars contained a copy of every book in the Old Testament except Ester. These manuscripts were translated into English, and then compared to a King James version Bible. There was nothing differant except a few misspellings. So if the Old Testament was so accurate, shouldn't the New Testament be just as accurate?

    So we can conclude that the New Testament/Inspired Word of God is completely accurate.
     
    #214 Lindsey-Loo, Jul 14, 2005
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