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Featured How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Dec 30, 2020.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That's a good point, and no, they would have no reason to believe in Manifestations of God before the Bab, but they might believe in Prophets before Muhammad came and they might believe in Messengers of God after Muhammad came.
    Maybe, but it is not a rational conclusion if one reads what is written about Jesus in the Baha'i Writings. :)
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Baha'is believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God and a flawless Messenger of God. He was also a Servant of God and the Voice of God. Those were the various stations of Jesus and all of them can be seen if one reads the gospels. The same applies to Baha'u'llah, He had all those stations.
     
  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I'm searching the Bahai library, and I don't see anything that addresses specific problems that Jewish people have regarding the story of Jesus in the gospels. All that I'm finding is praise of Jesus, no reasons to conclude that Jesus was a Manifestation of God.
     
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What are the 'specific problems' that Jewish people have regarding the story of Jesus?

    Why would you expect to find anything that addresses 'specific problems' that Jewish people have regarding the story of Jesus in the gospels in the Baha'i library? If you have any specific problems and I know what thye are maybe I can address them.

    There would be no reason for you to conclude that Jesus was a Manifestation of God unless you were a Baha'i.
    If you were Christian you would believe what Christians believe about Jesus, that Jesus was God....
    If you were a Muslim, you would believe what Muslims believe about Jesus, that Jesus was a Messenger of God.
    As a Jew, you would have to decide which one of these religions, if any, you want to look at in order to determine who Jesus was.

    As Baha'is, we believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, and we believe certain things about Jesus and Christianity, because these are embedded in the teachings of our religion. Moreover, it is a requirement that we believe them in order to be a Baha'i.

    The position that Baha’is hold on Christianity and the station of Jesus are stated in the fifth paragraph down on the page below.
    The requirements for Baha'is are stated in the sixth paragraph:

    The Continuity of Revelation
     
  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Great! :)
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Meaning???? o_O
     
  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    You confirmed what I said earlier.

    I said it's "rational"; you said "there would be no reason"; we agree.

    It's great! :)
     
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  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    The Kitab-i-Iqan is the work that explains all these aspects of Faith.

    It explains why men reject the Messengers.

    This book and the Kitab-i-aqdas are the keys and the Law.

    The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

    The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library

    "THE first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behooveth everyone who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration..... " Kitab-i-aqdas


    Regards Tony
     
    #1108 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Jan 20, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    How was any of that seen as being "stuck" in the past? But, you know, there is also the problem of people not learning from the past or even people that ignore the past or rewrite the past. How different is me believing that most all, probably all, religions have many mythical elements in them and saying, like the Baha'is do, that the past religions took on many superstitious beliefs?
     
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  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    There is nothing wrong with you saying that, but I think you have known that for a long time and you have said it many times.

    It is true that we should learn from the past but I do not think it think it is necessary to keep dwelling on the past because the past is gone, done and over. I say the same things to people who talk about politics. Trump is gone now, this country learned a hard lesson, but now it is time to move on and deal with the problems we have in the present. God knows we have enough problems in the present, and focusing on the past only distracts from present-day problems.
     
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Actually to say "three parts" is considered a heresy. Each person is considered fully God. The whole doctrine makes no logical sense and they will admit that.
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    And Muslims and Baha'is will agree with you. So what do Baha'is say about those Christians that believe Jesus is God? They believe they are wrong. That makes most Christians for the last 2000 years wrong. But the main problem is that too many people have taken their Scriptures too literally. Jesus is a "perfect" reflection of God but not God. He was a divine messenger, but not the only one. His spirit rose, but not his physical body. So Baha'is make it a lot easier for Jews today to accept a Jesus that didn't say or do most all of the controversial things that the NT says about him. He is a new, easier to believe in Jesus. And Baha'is don't even make him "The Messiah". Their guy, Baha'u'llah, is the True Messiah for the end times.
     
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  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Each person is fully God, with the same nature, substance, and essence, but they are distinct. While their nature and essence is the same, the Son submits to the Father.
     
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Yes, you are correct -- normative, orthodox Christianity, both Protestant and Catholic, says that they ARE distinct persons.

    Don't blame the messenger. I think Trinitarianism is the most foolish thing imaginable. I am not the person who made it up and I don't believe it or advocate it.
     
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  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Why wouldn't it be possible for distinct persons to have the same nature, essence, and substance? The plurality of God is like men and women being different but both genders are made in God's image.
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    There is world of difference between saying that they share the same essence or substance than that they share the same nature. I share the same nature as the next human being, but I do not share their essence/substance. No, it is not at all like the analogy you gave -- I have talked to enough trinitarian theologians and read enough books to know this.
     
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  17. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Male and female reflect different aspects of God's image. God is One but there is a plurality.
     
  18. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    God certainly transcends gender--on that we agree. But a plurality of attributes is nothing similar to a plurality of persons.

    I have to go. Shabbat.
     
  19. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

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    Yes you are right "tree parts" is considered hersey but I think CG Didymus meant this:

    just imagine if one of the persons in God suddenly disappeared. Then God would not be any more. Without the three persons God would fall apart. God would die.
    For God in the Christian doctrine is God only if God is whole. So God needs to be one in essence, three in person . if God lacks a part of himself everything falls apart.

    So the trinity is the whole God. Without one of the persons, God is not whole anymore. Then God is not God.

    And yes i know this is a bad example because God is pure spirit. And God can never die.

    I do not believe in the trinity myself. But this is how many christians believe about God. The majority of christians, catholic, orttodox, protestant in the world believe in this doctrine
     
    #1119 Meandflower, Jan 22, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
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  20. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The vastness of God explains both the plurality of attributes and plurality of persons.
     
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