How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[CG Didymus]

Let’s say someone walked up to you, claiming that they are the fulfillment of your religion. Would you drop everything and follow them?

No, there should be some proof. Some prophecies fulfilled. Some signs and wonders. Or, all it takes is a smooth talking, charismatic leader and people will drop everything and follow them. Some have claimed to be The Christ or some kind of a prophet... and they weren't.

 

[CG Didymus]

Logically speaking, why would we have to explain away those differences? After all the Baha'i Faith makes no claim that all religions are the same, as Baha'u'llah says they are all different.

But Baha'is have tried to explain away the differences. They say some things have been misinterpreted. Some things are taken too literal. Some things have been added in by "traditions of men".

So why would Jews accept Christianity when Christians tell them that without Jesus they will be sent to hell along with Satan and his demons. That Jesus rose from the dead and spoke with the disciples. That the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples at Pentecost. That Jesus, the same man, is coming back. And that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are all part of a Trinitarian Godhead. For those Jews that did fall for all that and became Christians, Baha'is would tell them how wrong they are. None of those beliefs and doctrines are true. The only Jesus a Jew should accept is the Jesus as defined and interpreted by the Baha'i Faith. A Jesus that died and stayed dead. And the only rising he did was his spirit. Yes, Baha'is do need to explain away these differences. And they explain it away by telling people that what their religious leaders have taught them is wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

You might want to take a long hard look into a mirror.

The reason religious believers of older religions do not want to relinquish their older religions is because they believe they have the only true religion. It cannot be because if me, because those of the older religions have been rejecting the Baha'i Faith from day one. Of course, I hardly expect religious people to think logically when they are faced with the hard cold truth of what they believe. When they cannot weasel out of it they hurl personal insults.

Why not just admit the truth? The Jews have rejected every religion that God revealed after Judaism, not just the Baha'i Faith. First they rejected Christianity, then they rejected Islam, then they rejected the Baha'i Faith.

I found the reason last night on Google, not that I did not already know the reason. The reason is because Jews believe that Judaism is the one true religion.

The Messianic Age is often referred to by Jews as olam ha-ba , meaning 'the world to come'. Jews believe this will be a time of peace with a total absence of war and hatred. During the Messianic Age, Jews believe that God will be accepted by everyone and Judaism will be known as the one true religion.
Messiah - Key beliefs - OCR - GCSE Religious Studies Revision ...

Logically speaking, that means Jews believe that ALL other religions are false religions. By stark contrast, Baha'is do not believe that the Baha'i Faith is the one true religion. We believe that all the revealed religions are true religions, and that is why Baha'u'llah wrote that all the followers of the one true God will go to heaven.

“They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

 

[Vinayaka]

The reason religious believers of older religions do not want to relinquish their older religions is because they believe they have the only true religion.

Perhaps Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe that, but I most certainly don't. I believe that God emanated a large variety of religions and non-religions so that there would be something for all, with none being better than the other, just different. The human species is diverse in many ways, and how they perceive reality is one of them. We can't all live on the same island eating the same food, having the same climate. Therefore ... diversity. It's not that hard of a concept.

 

[Trailblazer]

But Baha'is have tried to explain away the differences. They say some things have been misinterpreted. Some things are taken too literal. Some things have been added in by "traditions of men".

No, that is not true. I have told you dozens of time why there are differences between religions and I have quoted Baha'u'llah explaining why there are differences.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

So why would Jews accept Christianity when Christians tell them that without Jesus they will be sent to hell along with Satan and his demons. That Jesus rose from the dead and spoke with the disciples. That the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples at Pentecost. That Jesus, the same man, is coming back. And that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are all part of a Trinitarian Godhead.

I never said that Jews should accept the teachings and doctrines of Christianity, I said they should accept Jesus as a Manifestation of God. In fact, Baha'u'llah never said that Jews should accept Christianity, He only said that they should have recognized Jesus as a Manifestation of God.

For those Jews that did fall for all that and became Christians, Baha'is would tell them how wrong they are. None of those beliefs and doctrines are true.

Yes, that is what we would say.

The only Jesus a Jew should accept is the Jesus as defined and interpreted by the Baha'i Faith. A Jesus that died and stayed dead. And the only rising he did was his spirit. Yes, Baha'is do need to explain away these differences. And they explain it away by telling people that what their religious leaders have taught them is wrong.

No, that is not what Baha'is would say. We would say that Jews should accept the Jesus of the gospels. Jews can make their own determination as to whether Jesus rose from the dead, but ultimately it doesn't matter because a body is just a body and all bodies will die eventually.

 

[Trailblazer]

Perhaps Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe that, but I most certainly don't. I believe that God emanated a large variety of religions and non-religions so that there would be something for all, with none being better than the other, just different. The human species is diverse in many ways, and how they perceive reality is one of them. We can't all live on the same island eating the same food, having the same climate. Therefore ... diversity. It's not that hard of a concept.

And that is why I believe that Hinduism is a cut above the exclusivist Abrahamic religions. When I said "older religions" I was only referring to the Abrahamic religions. Sorry I did not clarify that. I am well aware that the dharmic religions are not "only way" religions. That is why I had originally written "The reason religious believers of "certain" older religions do not want to relinquish their older religions is because they believe they have the only true religion" but then I went back and edited my post at the last minute. My bad.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that God emanated a large variety of religions and non-religions so that there would be something for all, with none being better than the other, just different. The human species is diverse in many ways, and how they perceive reality is one of them. We can't all live on the same island eating the same food, having the same climate. Therefore ... diversity. It's not that hard of a concept.

That is an interesting point of view and I see some merit in it. Baha'is believe, that religions were different in every age because people were different in every age and they had different needs. However, that does not logically preclude what you said from also being true. Humans are very diverse so they cannot be made to fit into one mold. The questions are: How can we have unity in diversity, how we can accept each other as different but not better? How can we have religious diversity without discord? Obviously, that has not worked very well throughout history thus far. I think that discord has been caused primarily by the larger Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam, who have insisted that their religion is the only true religion, and since they are about 53% of the world population, that could present a problem moving forward.

 

[dybmh]

The Messianic Age is often referred to by Jews as olam ha-ba , meaning 'the world to come'. Jews believe this will be a time of peace with a total absence of war and hatred. During the Messianic Age, Jews believe that God will be accepted by everyone and Judaism will be known as the one true religion.

This is actually not true. The Messianic Age is not the same as HaOlam Haba. This idea that Judaism will be known as the one true religion is misleading.

In the Messianic era, according to some, there will be a several open miracles that will prove with 100% certainty that God as described in the Torah is real and true. If or when there is 100% undeniable proof, then it makes sense to say that everyone will believe in the same basic principles.

Non-Jews will still not be obligated into any specific religion, but Idol worship is still prohibited for everyone.

This is described in the wikipedia article below.

Jewish views on religious pluralism - Wikipedia

"Traditionally, Jews believe that God chose the Jewish people to be in a unique covenant with God, described by the Torah itself, with particular obligations and responsibilities elucidated in the Oral Torah. Sometimes this choice is seen as charging the Jewish people with a specific mission – to be a light unto the nations, practice Tikkun olam and to exemplify the covenant with God as described in the Torah. This view, however, did not preclude a belief that God has a relationship with other peoples – rather, Judaism held that God had entered into a covenant with all humankind, and that Jews and non-Jews alike have a relationship with God, each nation with its own unique relationship with God."

 

[Trailblazer]

This is actually not true. The Messianic Age is not the same as HaOlam Haba. This idea that Judaism will be known as the one true religion is misleading.

I do not believe it is true just because I found it in the internet, and I posted it hoping that a Jewish person might offer a different viewpoint.

As a non-Jew, and one who is not familiar with the Jewish scriptures, it is impossible for me to know which Jewish viewpoint is correct. All I have is what Jews tell me and they tell me different things about the Messiah, the Messianic Age, and whether Judaism will be come to be known as the one true religion during the Messianic Age.

 

[Trailblazer]

– rather, Judaism held that God had entered into a covenant with all humankind, and that Jews and non-Jews alike have a relationship with God, each nation with its own unique relationship with God."

This is similar to what Baha'is believe, as we believe that the Mosaic Covenant is everlasting, and that everyone can have a relationship with God.

Imo, Christianity really mucked up what Judaism taught by stating that Jesus is the Only Way to God and that only Christians can have a relationship with God and only through Jesus, but I do not blame Jesus for what Christians did in His name long after He died, because that is unjust.

 

[Vinayaka]

And that is why I believe that Hinduism is a cut above the exclusivist Abrahamic religions. When I said "older religions" I was only referring to the Abrahamic religions. Sorry I did not clarify that. I am well aware that the dharmic religions are not "only way" religions. That is why I had originally written "The reason religious believers of "certain" older religions do not want to relinquish their older religions is because they believe they have the only true religion" but then I went back and edited my post at the last minute. My bad.

I don't believe Hinduism is a cut above anything. We're different, that's it. It's adherents that make it appear that one religion thinks it's better than the other.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If that's one of your criteria for a place being the center of faith then, Saudi (Mecca and Madinah) has you beat by a few million, at least, each month pre covid.

Oh and its Palestine, not Israel.

A Baha'i fully embraces the Message of Muhammad, but the Kaaba has now been changed.

A True Prophet fulfills many criteria, as such if they have fulfilled one, then it is wise to see if they have fulfilled others as well.

Also Iran is and will be the first point of Baha'i Pilgrimage, Shiraz and Tehran are both places that would have many Baha'i Pilgrims.

I leave it to you as to why that can not yet happen.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Let’s say someone walked up to you, claiming that they are the fulfillment of your religion. Would you drop everything and follow them?

One must listen to what they say and make a judgement on what they offer.

These days the first reaction is to pass sentence as false, without the required fact finding and evidence gathering.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You lack evidence that this is the messianic age. There are other signs that are just missing. For example, everyone will know God -- just not true, as atheists still exist.

But more to the point, you lack evidence of cause and effect. Just because A comes before B doesn't mean that A causes B.

There would be not a person in this age that has not been told of and thus does not know of 'God'. It may be they know of but one Name and only a few of the Attributes of God, but they will know of God, even if they have not accepted what they have heard.

The Key here is, there is only One God.

Can you quote passages where is says every last person will embrace the Law as given by God?

I see all are given the chance.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But Baha'is have tried to explain away the differences. They say some things have been misinterpreted. Some things are taken too literal. Some things have been added in by "traditions of men".

So why would Jews accept Christianity when Christians tell them that without Jesus they will be sent to hell along with Satan and his demons. That Jesus rose from the dead and spoke with the disciples. That the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples at Pentecost. That Jesus, the same man, is coming back. And that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are all part of a Trinitarian Godhead. For those Jews that did fall for all that and became Christians, Baha'is would tell them how wrong they are. None of those beliefs and doctrines are true. The only Jesus a Jew should accept is the Jesus as defined and interpreted by the Baha'i Faith. A Jesus that died and stayed dead. And the only rising he did was his spirit. Yes, Baha'is do need to explain away these differences. And they explain it away by telling people that what their religious leaders have taught them is wrong.

If there is One God and all the Messengers have come from the same One God, then what conclusions to the current state of religious affairs can you offer CG?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That is an interesting point of view and I see some merit in it. Baha'is believe, that religions were different in every age because people were different in every age and they had different needs. However, that does not logically preclude what you said from also being true. Humans are very diverse so they cannot be made to fit into one mold. The questions are: How can we have unity in diversity, how we can accept each other as different but not better? How can we have religious diversity without discord? Obviously, that has not worked very well throughout history thus far. I think that discord has been caused primarily by the larger Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam, who have insisted that their religion is the only true religion, and since they are about 53% of the world population, that could present a problem moving forward.

But then there is the problem of religious myth. How many people and cultures have had their religions and their Gods. How many have had their Laws. But most of those we don't believe. And you can't say they weren't "revealed", because most of them had a prophet or somebody claiming that the "Gods" told them those things. I always bring up the Greeks, the Egyptians... The Aztecs or Polynesians... They all had their Gods and religious laws and duties... but did God really tell them to sacrifice humans into volcanos or to have temple prostitutes? So why are some "myths" truer than others? Even though all of them have superstitious and mythical elements?

 

[CG Didymus]

One must listen to what they say and make a judgement on what they offer.

These days the first reaction is to pass sentence as false, without the required fact finding and evidence gathering.

Regards Tony

When a Mormon or Jehovah Witness comes to your door, do you listen and gather the facts and evidence? Or, do you politely say, "No, I believe my religion." And say goodbye?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When a Mormon or Jehovah Witness comes to your door, do you listen and gather the facts and evidence? Or, do you politely say, "No, I believe my religion." And say goodbye?

CG, I already beleive in Jesus the Christ, they offer a different versions of The Message given by Jesus in the Bible. I do not see those interpretations reflect fully the Message of Christ.

The Key here is, will they look outside the Name of Jesus and look for Christ in other claimed Mesengers?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

But then there is the problem of religious myth. How many people and cultures have had their religions and their Gods. How many have had their Laws. But most of those we don't believe. And you can't say they weren't "revealed", because most of them had a prophet or somebody claiming that the "Gods" told them those things. I always bring up the Greeks, the Egyptians... The Aztecs or Polynesians...

They were not revealed religions unless their prophet got a revelation from God. I do not believe that was the case for all so-called religions.

They all had their Gods and religious laws and duties... but did God really tell them to sacrifice humans into volcanos or to have temple prostitutes? So why are some "myths" truer than others? Even though all of them have superstitious and mythical elements?

I do not believe that God told them to do these things. Myths are just stories and no myths are true, that is why they are called myths.

 

[CG Didymus]

If there is One God and all the Messengers have come from the same One God, then what conclusions to the current state of religious affairs can you offer CG?

Regards Tony

So you answer a question with a question? Here's what I said...

But Baha'is have tried to explain away the differences. They say some things have been misinterpreted. Some things are taken too literal. Some things have been added in by "traditions of men".

So why would Jews accept Christianity when Christians tell them that without Jesus they will be sent to hell along with Satan and his demons. That Jesus rose from the dead and spoke with the disciples. That the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples at Pentecost. That Jesus, the same man, is coming back. And that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are all part of a Trinitarian Godhead. For those Jews that did fall for all that and became Christians, Baha'is would tell them how wrong they are. None of those beliefs and doctrines are true. The only Jesus a Jew should accept is the Jesus as defined and interpreted by the Baha'i Faith. A Jesus that died and stayed dead. And the only rising he did was his spirit. Yes, Baha'is do need to explain away these differences. And they explain it away by telling people that what their religious leaders have taught them is wrong.

No, that is not true.

And this is Trailblazer's response. So, still, do Baha'is believe that any one of the many sects or denominations of Christianity teach, believe, and practice the Truth? If not, then why would a Jew leave their religion, a religion that Baha'is also don't think is being practiced correctly and that has some wrong beliefs, and join up any of the many Christians groups?

Prior to the coming of the Baha'i Faith, was any religion perfectly believing and following the Truth from God? Including Islam? If not, then it would have done zero good for anybody to convert to any of the religions. But now we do have the Baha'i Faith. Now we have, supposedly, the exact Truth from God for today. So if that Jew does join the Baha'i Faith, what is it about Jesus and Muhammad that they expected to believe? They are not expected to follow the New Testament or the Quran. They not expected to follow any of the practices that Christians or Muslims do.

They expected to follow Baha'i beliefs and practices. None of the beliefs and practices of their own religion or any of the other matters anymore, besides... none of them were correct anyway. What they are expected to do is accept that Jesus and Muhammad were true messengers from God. But did Jesus rise from the dead? Did Jesus walk on water? Maybe, maybe not. To a Baha'i those things don't matter. The beliefs and details of the past religions aren't all that important. In fact, Baha'is tell the new people that those old Scriptures should not have ever been taken so literally. And that has been one of the major problems with religions.

But anyway, to answer your hypothetical question... If there is One God and all Messengers have come from that One God, then the messages have been mangled and distorted. Because it sure doesn't seem like One God has been the author of all the different Scriptures of all the different religions. So, one explanation... all people in all cultures have made up their own ideas about their Gods and what those Gods want them to do. Since people do need some laws and guidelines, maybe the leaders of that culture decided to make up their Gods and said that those Gods have sent down laws and rules to live by. If followed, good things will happen, and after you die, if you've been good, you will go to a heavenly paradise. If, however, you do evil, these invisible Gods see all and will punish you. You might think you're getting away with it on Earth, but there will be hell to pay in the other world. You know, that world that nobody can't see or prove.

So many religions we've cast aside and don't believe were true. But the Baha'i say all the major religions of today are true. Even though they all beliefs that differ greatly from each other. So how do you get all people to work together and come together in peace and harmony? You get them to follow new laws and beliefs that have come from this One True Invisible God. So that kicks as back to the problem of Baha'is having to explain away the differences between the different religions.

Is it because the Scriptures were written wrong? Were they only interpreted wrong? Did religious leaders in each religion bring in "traditions" of men and changed the "original" teachings of the religion? Why the differences? Or, they are different because people wrote the Scriptures, interpreted their own Scriptures and added in things, "traditions", over the years? And then people in another culture did the same thing. Why would we expect them not to be different? And, at times, contradictory? The only answer I've gotten from Baha'is is... "Originally" the messages were all one, or at least more in line with each other. Sure, whatever Baha'is need to do. Go ahead. But quit complaining when you're questioned about the things you're doing. Oh, and glad you came back. Poor TB has been left all alone here.