How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[danieldemol]

I see nobody criticizing the Jews or their beliefs, it is always the Baha'is.

You should read some of my posts in which I criticise Isaiah and others as false prophets. If that's not a criticism of Judaism I don't know what is.

As for why Baha'is get more criticism, its because you tend to receive what you put out. It wasn't a Jew who started this thread criticising the beliefs of Jews - they are clearly on the defence here.

Sure there are some who pick on Baha'i because its the new kid on the block, but to be fair I've noticed that coming more from Muslims and 1 or 2 Hindus than from the Jews.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sure I remember. TB said that Jewish people refuse to consider other interpretations of their scripture. I said, I'll bite, what other interpretation should I consider?

I learned that whether or not Bahaullah is the Messiah from the Torah is actually irrelevant. The prophecies that Baha'i claim for Bahaullah as fulfilled don't describe a savior. Even if I accept their interpretation of Jewish scripture, it doesn't have any impact on whether or not I should change anything about my current beliefs or religious practice.

Thanks, I spent some time in the 70's with Baha'is in their efforts to convert Native Americans in Neah Bay, Washington, in Warm Springs, Oregon, in Poplar, Montana and a few other places. A friend converted to Christianity, there was a big "Jesus" movement back then, and he showed me in the Christian Bible how everything Baha'is had told me about the Bible was wrong. I had never read the Bible, so I took it all in... as if they knew and were telling the truth.

About three years later, in LA, I saw a Jewish bookstore and asked a similar question asked in this thread... "The Baha'is say they came from you. The Christians say they came from you, yet you stay with your Jewish beliefs. He was reluctant to get into the reasons with me, and finally said, "Here's three books. They'll explain the reasons." They all small, probably less than 100 pages. I think one was called, "You take Jesus, We'll take God." They pretty much went through the Messianic prophecies and showed how they weren't fulfilled. Than they went through the so-called prophecies that Christians made into prophecies... One of the main ones was Isaiah 7:14. Since then I just can't trust any religion that takes one verse out of context and makes it a prophecy.

Thanks for your posts here in this thread. I've learned a lot.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm guessing it's their own evil ego. Ironic, isn't it?

For the record, I do not see any other Jewish people on this forum denigrating Baha'is, and as such it would be terribly unjust for me to make any assumptions about Jews or Judaism just because one Jew decided to join forces with CG to attack Baha'is, but the worst thing about it is that is never direct, it is done with subterfuge.

 

[Trailblazer]

You should read some of my posts in which I criticise Isaiah and others as false prophets. If that's not a criticism of Judaism I don't know what is.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

As for why Baha'is get more criticism, its because you tend to receive what you put out. It wasn't a Jew who started this thread criticising the beliefs of Jews - they are clearly on the defence here.

I do not care what Tony did, as I am not responsible for anyone except myself. Show me where I criticized Jewish beliefs. Disagreeing with Jewish beliefs is not criticizing. Stating my beliefs which are different is not criticizing Jewish beliefs.

Sure there are some who pick on Baha'i because its the new kid on the block, but to be fair I've noticed that coming more from Muslims and 1 or 2 Hindus than from the Jews.

You are right, and as I just said to dybmh, I do not see any other Jews attacking Baha'is so I do not believe this has anything to do with the Jewish people or the religion itself.

 

[dybmh]

I do not know why you think this is targeted at Judaism. Shoghi Effendi wrote it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it,

I don't think it's targetted at Judaism. What's targetted at Judaism is Bahá’u’lláh's bigotry. He demonizes Jewish people simply because we came to the rational conclusion that Jesus is not our Messiah.

Speaking about the abrogations, as I've been saying, it is not needed for Jewish people. That's why I'm asking for specific reasons why the abrogation is needed for Judaism. Without providing specific examples why these abrogations are needed, then it's another form of bigorty, it's ageism. But it's not targetted at Judaism, it's universally bigoted against all other religions.

AGAIN, it is not the religion of Judaism that "we believe" has been abrogated, it is the Dispensation of Moses.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

Baha'is believe that by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is only according to one religion at a time. Thus each religion only applies to the age (dispensation) in which it is revealed.

Once a Messenger of God has completed His Mission on earth, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Messenger of God appears. Moreover, every time God sends a new Messenger, His Revelation abrogates all the Revelations that came before it and the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is according to the religion that He establishes. That means that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Messenger of God. I believe that Messenger was Baha'u'llah.

So Moses is dead. That's the reason. The revelation is old. That's it. No other reason?

Ageism.

No, we are not reinterpreting anyone's religion nor are we saying that our religion is "better" just because it is newer. Shoghi Effendi wrote about the Bahai Faith that.....

Sorry, but your source says the opposite. You quoted it, but maybe you don't understand what it means.

Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose.
​

"To obtain a fuller understanding..." "To acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose..." that is by definition reinterpretting.

 

[CG Didymus]

Okay thanks, but I see they did not reference where they got this information. I think there are a lot of different ideas regarding who were actually Manifestations of God, so maybe some Baha'i should write to the UHJ and try to pin this down. One thing that is in the Writings is that there have been Messengers who were not Manifestations of God, and interestingly, I just received this article in my e-mail today:

Spiritual Messengers: Unto the Cities of All Nations

I've heard David Langness speak before. I also met some of the people that put together the "Dialogue" magazine. They got in big trouble with the Baha'i leadership for some of their articles. I thought that David was one of them, but then I think it was you that said he's still a Baha'i. It's interesting that he talking about Native American religion. That's what I was into. And that's why I went with Baha'is to different Reservations. On my own, I went to the Hopi Reservation. Here is a link to their prophecies if you or anyone else cares.

 

[dybmh]

For the record, I do not see any other Jewish people on this forum denigrating Baha'is, and as such it would be terribly unjust for me to make any assumptions about Jews or Judaism just because one Jew decided to join forces with CG to attack Baha'is, but the worst thing about it is that is never direct, it is done with subterfuge.

Nah. It's simply ironic how egotistical it is to claim that Jewish people are wrapped in the viels of our ego while ignoring their own egotistical claims.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is are saying that older religions are "bad."

I assume you meant "aren't" bad? Even though people in some religions have done a lot of bad things?

 

[CG Didymus]

You are making it about winning, but I have no need to win. I just state what I believe, so if I believe an interpretation is incorrect, I am going to say that.

"Baha'is are always right, because Baha'u'llah is the manifestation for today," You are constantly making this into a contest about who us right and who is wrong but it is not about right and wrong. If Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this day, He is, but that does not make all the older religions wrong, it just means we have a newer religion. How is that our fault that we believe in the newer religion?

Do Baha'is think that the way all the other religions are believed and practiced today are right or wrong? Oh, and by the way, you just made yourself the winner again.

 

[dybmh]

Show me where I criticized Jewish beliefs. Disagreeing with Jewish beliefs is not criticizing. Stating my beliefs which are different is not criticizing Jewish beliefs.

here you go...

I think that the reason that Jews and Christian and Muslims say there is no need for any more Messengers is because that [they] are so 'attached' to their religions and they do not want to relinquish them to a new religion that has a new Messenger.

 

[CG Didymus]

Therefore, from the date of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the advent of the Báb there are 1,844 years, and if 456 years are added to this number it makes 2,300 years.

Hmmm? Why do I repeat myself? Could it be that you still have it wrong. Tell your friend that I'm questioning why start the 2300 days in 456BC? That was the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. It has nothing to do with the daily sacrifice being stopped. Whereas Antiochus Epiphanes apparently did. Later, I think this guy is a 7th Day Adventist, he makes an argument for using 456BC.

Antiochus loved the decadent and sensual ways of the Greeks. When the king arrived in Jerusalem, he showed contempt for the conservative Jews by erecting a statue of the Greek god, Zeus, on the Altar of Burnt Offering on Chislev 15, 167 B.C. Ten days later, on Chislev 25, Antiochus ended daily services (including the daily sacrifices) at the temple when he offered a pig (or some unclean animal) on the Altar of Burnt Offering. This abominable act led to a series of wars between Antiochus forces and conservative Jews. This series of wars became known as the Maccabean revolt because a conservative priest, Judas Maccabeus, led the Jews against the forces of Antiochus IV.

A year or so later, Antiochus ran out of money again. This time he decided to raid portions of Persia to finance his excessive spending habits. Therefore, he turned his management of his kingdom over to his friend, Lysais, instructing him to destroy the Jews and Jerusalem as quickly as possible. However, Judas Maccabeus and the Jews eventually defeated Lysais and his generals. The victory over Lysais did not end the wars between the Jews and their enemies. Three years after offering a pig on the altar, to the very day, on Chislev 25, 164 B.C., a new altar was installed and dedicated in the temple at Jerusalem and the daily services resumed. The Jews have celebrated the restoration of temple services on this day ever since. (See John 10:22,23) It is called Hanukkah, which means ‘the dedication.”​

 

[danieldemol]

I do not care what Tony did, as I am not responsible for anyone except myself.

If you do not care what Tony did when he criticised Jewish beliefs why do you care about what @dybmh did in criticising Baha'i beliefs?

Why are you responsible for dybmh but not for Tony?

 

[Trailblazer]

Nonsense. It has nothing to do with being Baha'i. It's preachy for anyone to tell other people what their obligations are.

I said something about obligations to God but later when I realized that was the wrong word I retracted that and said it was what Baha’u’llah had enjoined, and I even quoted what He said: “This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal.”

Yes. This idea that Jewish people are egotistical because they reject Jesus is completely bigoted. We have good rational reasons fo rejecting Jesus. It's not our evil lower self. That's slander and it's written in Baha'i scripture which is deemed infallible.

That is a straw man. Nobody ever said Jews are egotistical because they reject Jesus. No, that is not what is written in Baha’i scripture, it is what YOU interpret the scripture to mean.

" ... and He did ... " Show me some examples.

Why would I bother?

You're being dishonest. The Jewish Messiah, per the quote above, is an idol. That's a completely false insulting misprepresntation of the Jewish Messiah. It's not an idol. No strawman.

No, that is just what you interpret that passage to mean. All it means is that Jews imagine the Messiah will be a certain way according to how they have interpreted their scriptures. If you do not like how Baha’u’llah writes it is not fair to take it out on me. I did not write it, I just believe it.

You're being dishonest. It's not a strawman. It's quoted above. Baha'i scripture demonizes Jewish people for denying that Jesus is our Messiah. Here's the quote from your scripture again since you are denying reality.

You can call that demonizing if you want to, but that is not what it is. He said “wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings” and I already explained what He meant. All it means is that Jews imagine the Messiah will be a certain way according to how they have interpreted their scriptures and as a result they were/are veiled from recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Speaking about the abrogations, as I've been saying, it is not needed for Jewish people. That's why I'm asking for specific reasons why the abrogation is needed for Judaism. Without providing specific examples why these abrogations are needed,

I am not going to come up with specific examples as to why religious dispensations need to be abrogated, I will just quote Baha'u'llah explaining the reasons. This applies to all former religious dispensations, not just the Mosaic Dispensation.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

 

[Trailblazer]

here you go...

Trailblazer said: ↑
Show me where I criticized Jewish beliefs. Disagreeing with Jewish beliefs is not criticizing. Stating my beliefs which are different is not criticizing Jewish beliefs.
here you go...

Trailblazer said: ↑
I think that the reason that Jews and Christian and Muslims say there is no need for any more Messengers is because that [they] are so 'attached' to their religions and they do not want to relinquish them to a new religion that has a new Messenger.

Sorry but no, that was not me disagreeing with Jewish beliefs or me criticizing Jewish beliefs. That was just me stating my personal opinion about the believers in those religions.

 

[dybmh]

That is a straw man. Nobody ever said Jews are egotistical because they reject Jesus. No, that is not what is written in Baha’i scripture, it is what YOU interpret the scripture to mean.

You're being dishonest. Here is it again since you are denying reality.

And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the dayspring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfill the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the law of divorce and of the sabbath day—the most weighty of all the laws of Moses. Moreover, what of the signs of the Manifestation yet to come? These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation.

(The Kitáb-i-Íqán)
www.bahai.org/r/570360520​

And here's your quote showing what it means to be wrapped in the densest veils of satanic fancy.

Just to let you know, that is what Baha'u'llah meant when He said "Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived!"

Satanic fancy refers the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.

The passage begins talking about the light of Jesus. Then the passage asks how many other revealers of light will manifest while Israel, wrapped in the densest veil of their evil ego, is tormented in nethermost hellfire for no other reason except that we "refused" to apprehend the meaning of the words in the Bible.

That's it. Baha'i scripture is bigoted against Jewish people for no other reason except that we deny that Jesus is our Messiah. There is no other way to read this text.

No, that is just what you interpret that passage to mean. All it means is that Jews imagine the Messiah will be a certain way according to how they have interpreted their scriptures. If you do not like how Baha’u’llah writes it is not fair to take it out on me. I did not write it, I just believe it.

Nope. You're being dishonest. Again. You left out the part about the Jewish evil ego. Here it is again.

Just to let you know, that is what Baha'u'llah meant when He said "Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived!"

Satanic fancy refers the evil ego within us,

​

You keep ignoring that Baha'i scripture called Israel wrapped in their evil ego. You did it again below.

You can call that demonizing if you want to, but that is not what it is. He said “wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings” and I already explained what He meant. All it means is that Jews imagine the Messiah will be a certain way according to how they have interpreted their scriptures and as a result they were/are veiled from recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God.

Nope. Wrapped in the densest veils of satanic fancy means wrapped in the densest veils of evil ego. That's your interpretation, not mine. Baha'i scripture is bigoted against Jewish people.

 

[dybmh]

I am not going to come up with specific examples as to why religious dispensations need to be abrogated, I will just quote Baha'u'llah explaining the reasons. This applies to all former religious dispensations, not just the Mosaic Dispensation.

It's bigoted. It's ageist and egotistical to assume that other religions need to be reinterpretted simply because they're old.

 

[dybmh]

Trailblazer said: ↑
Show me where I criticized Jewish beliefs. Disagreeing with Jewish beliefs is not criticizing. Stating my beliefs which are different is not criticizing Jewish beliefs.
here you go...

Trailblazer said: ↑
I think that the reason that Jews and Christian and Muslims say there is no need for any more Messengers is because that [they] are so 'attached' to their religions and they do not want to relinquish them to a new religion that has a new Messenger.

Sorry but no, that was not me disagreeing with Jewish beliefs or me criticizing Jewish beliefs. That was just me stating my personal opinion about the believers in those religions.

Your personal belief was criticizing their beliefs. "... they are so 'attached' to their religion ... " is a criticism.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you do not care what Tony did when he criticised Jewish beliefs why do you care about what @dybmh did in criticising Baha'i beliefs?

Why are you responsible for dybmh but not for Tony?

Did Tony criticize Jewish beliefs? I do not recall that and I have no time to go back and look.

I am not responsible for Tony or for dybmh, I am only responsible for myself, and I am responsible to God, so I care when dybmh misrepresents the Baha'i Faith on a public forum, and it is my duty to defend the Faith.

“Warn, O Salmán, the beloved of the one true God, not to view with too critical an eye the sayings and writings of men. Let them rather approach such sayings and writings in a spirit of open-mindedness and loving sympathy. Those men, however, who, in this Day, have been led to assail, in their inflammatory writings, the tenets of the Cause of God, are to be treated differently. It is incumbent upon all men, each according to his ability, to refute the arguments of those that have attacked the Faith of God. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Powerful, the Almighty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

 

[Trailblazer]

I've heard David Langness speak before. I also met some of the people that put together the "Dialogue" magazine. They got in big trouble with the Baha'i leadership for some of their articles. I thought that David was one of them, but then I think it was you that said he's still a Baha'i. It's interesting that he talking about Native American religion. That's what I was into. And that's why I went with Baha'is to different Reservations. On my own, I went to the Hopi Reservation. Here is a link to their prophecies if you or anyone else cares.

I love the Baha'iTeachings,org articles, and I do not give a darn what the Bahai leadership thinks of them...
What is the Baha'i leadership doing to teach the Faith?