How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[CG Didymus]

You are never going to prove anything by insisting the Baha'is are wrong and there has to be another interpretation that is right. You will just continue spinning your wheels until the day you die. Apparently you imagine there is some resolution and you are going to find it if you keep analyzing the prophecies to death, and that is your choice to do so.

I am not playing this game anymore, as it is a game of clashing egos. Take a look at what I just posted and try to understand what I was getting at, because it applies to you as well as it applies to Jews and Christians. #855

I already responded to that one before I read this one. Asking you to read Daniel 8 in context is not me analyzing a prophecy to death. It is you and the other Baha'is making the 2300 days what you want them to be. And speaking of egos, only one Baha'i here on the forum impressed me with what I thought was true humility and the was Loverofhumanity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmmm? So that implies that people that don't recognize Baha'u'llah are not humble and not sincere seekers of truth but are chaff? Really? I don't know it all so I ask questions of people who claim they have The Truth.

That is not what I said. They might be chaff or not, but they are not sincere and humble when they insist they know everything without even looking. That part does not apply to you, but it does apply to a lot of religious people.

In my opinion, you are barking up the wrong tree by asking people questions instead of investigating these things for yourself because you are looking to other people who claim they know the Truth so all you are going to get is their version of the Truth. That just reminded me of what Baha'u'llah wrote on this matter.

What Baha’u’llah wrote in The Kitáb-i-Íqán on the very first pages is vitally important. The following is part of the last sentence of a longer paragraph, the part I want to point out and explain.

“…… inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4

What it essentially says is that we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of other people as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot determine whether Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God according to what other people say or do.

What then do we do? We investigate the truth for ourselves.

 

[CG Didymus]

It depends on which Jews you talk to. Most religious Jews do--that's the traditional understanding. In my experience, sometimes Reform Jews do not believe in a resurrection or any kind of afterlife.

Thanks. Right now I don't have any more questions, but I'm glad you took the time to answer this one.

 

[Trailblazer]

I already responded to that one before I read this one. Asking you to read Daniel 8 in context is not me analyzing a prophecy to death. It is you and the other Baha'is making the 2300 days what you want them to be. And speaking of egos, only one Baha'i here on the forum impressed me with what I thought was true humility and the was Loverofhumanity.

Baha'is do not have to make the 2300 days what we want them to be because we know who Baha'u'llah was.

I can read Daniel 8, but what good would that do? That is not all you want me to do. You are trying to suck me into this game of figuring out how the Baha'is got to 2300 days, but I am not going to play that game because you already know how Bahais got to the 2300 days and I am not going to have any different interpretation.

I asked my friend Duane (Truthseeker9) to respond to you regarding Daniel 8 because he is very knowledgeable, but he does not want to play this game either.

 

[dybmh]

What are some of the Jewish interpretations of this verse? Especially if it is in context. Which the Baha'i interpretation isn't. They only use that one verse.

From the commentary of Rabbi Chaim Dov Rabinowitz, Da'ath Sofrim on Micah 7:12

In Micah's day, the expanding empire of Assyria, triumphant in conquest, brought deep fear and dread to all Israel. When the present words were spoken, many had probably been exiled already and numerous cities were under siege. It is to them that the prophet says: There will come a day for the ingathering of all exiles in the land of Assyria. This will include all those now under siege and soon to fall into the hands of the Assyrians.

Along every road leading from the besieged cities, all the way to the Euphrates River, were to be found exiles and refugees of Israel -- in mortal fear and a state of despair about their future.

The call goes out to all of them not to despair, not to imagine that this marks the end of the People of Israel. At the same time, however, all the words are directed to the future as well, to make it known that it does not matter where Israel has wandered and where they have been forced to go. They will be assembled from all places.​

 

[Trailblazer]

With Daniel 8 you found a reasonable alternative interpretation. It was about Antiochus Epiphanes. You even gave the year it happened.

No, I just gave you a year from a web search I did, and it is not necessarily correct. That was not an alternative interpretation of the Daniel 8 prophecy.

 

[CG Didymus]

In my opinion, you are barking up the wrong tree by asking people questions instead of investigating these things for yourself

What then do we do? We investigate the truth for ourselves.

Hmmm? I know you're tired of hearing about Daniel 8, but you don't think I've investigated it myself? It is exactly because having read William Miller's calculations and having listened to Baha'is and then read what Baha'is say that I question Baha'is about this supposed "fulfilled" prophecy. You, on the other hand, get into it with people of other religions and then admit you haven't read their Scriptures. But actually, I find that hard to believe. You quote the Bible, especially the gospel of John, like you're a scholar.

 

[CG Didymus]

From the commentary of Rabbi Chaim Dov Rabinowitz, Da'ath Sofrim on Micah 7:12

In Micah's day, the expanding empire of Assyria, triumphant in conquest, brought deep fear and dread to all Israel. When the present words were spoken, many had probably been exiled already and numerous cities were under siege. It is to them that the prophet says: There will come a day for the ingathering of all exiles in the land of Assyria. This will include all those now under siege and soon to fall into the hands of the Assyrians.

Along every road leading from the besieged cities, all the way to the Euphrates River, were to be found exiles and refugees of Israel -- in mortal fear and a state of despair about their future.

The call goes out to all of them not to despair, not to imagine that this marks the end of the People of Israel. At the same time, however, all the words are directed to the future as well, to make it known that it does not matter where Israel has wandered and where they have been forced to go. They will be assembled from all places.​

Thanks, I find it troubling that Christians and Baha'is come up with so many one verse prophecies. And then, the verses that Jews do believe to be Messianic prophecies aren't supposed to be taken too literal since their prophet hasn't fulfilled them... in the way that the Jews expected them to be fulfilled.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It always helps to look at the context of the verse you are citing:

Isaiah 2
1 the word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

So it shall come to pass in the last days that he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

The verse says that "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more" but it does not say when that will happen. An age is a period of time. Nowhere in any scriptures does it say that peace will be established during the lifetime of the Messiah, and nowhere in scriptures does it say when during the last days world peace would be established.

Baha'is believe that the last days were ushered in by the coming of the Messiah (Baha'u'llah), so we are living in the last days now, also referred to as the Messianic Age. Baha'u'llah has ushered in an "age" of worldwide peace. During this age, world peace will be established and all the prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled will be fulfilled.

Actually you highlighted when this was to occur: during the last days. Obviously we are not in the last days, since this is not the case.

 

[dybmh]

Times have changed since the Dispensation of Moses, so God has adjusted His program to suit the times we live in.

The Universal House of Justice is God-like and infallible. That has to be the worst idea I have ever heard.

 

[CG Didymus]

nowhere in scriptures does it say when during the last days world peace would be established.

Well, that maybe. But, it does say where...

Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Baha'is have made "Zion" and "Jerusalem" symbolic so they can move mountains and make Mt Carmel and Haifa the place to go for the law to be going forth. So Jesus was right. If you believe, you can move mountains.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is evidence, if you look for it, but I am not going to do your homework.

Yes another "Hmmm?" So this implies that if a person "does their homework" they will find the proof that, indeed, Baha'u'llah has ushered in world peace... even though the world is still engaging in constant war. But it's coming. It in the making.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmmm? I know you're tired of hearing about Daniel 8, but you don't think I've investigated it myself? It is exactly because having read William Miller's calculations and having listened to Baha'is and then read what Baha'is say that I question Baha'is about this supposed "fulfilled" prophecy.

So fine, question it, that is your choice. Question it for the rest of your life and base your entire decision as to whether Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be on your interpretation one prophecy.

I have already explained why that is not the best way to determine who Baha'u'llah was, but you are going to do it your own way. You think you are going to prove or disprove something with prophecies but you never will, for the obvious logical reason that prophecies can be interpreted in so many ways.

In short, you will find whatever you are looking for. In other words, you will always be able to find a reason why Baha'u'llah did not fulfill the prophecies by nitpicking them to death. Meanwhile, if He was the Messiah, you will never know.

You, on the other hand, get into it with people of other religions and then admit you haven't read their Scriptures. But actually, I find that hard to believe. You quote the Bible, especially the gospel of John, like you're a scholar.

I have not read all their Scriptures and I am honest with people and tell them that. I am not "into it" with anyone,

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually you highlighted when this was to occur: during the last days. Obviously we are not in the last days, since this is not the case.

We are in the last days, which is a period of time, an age. All the prophecies will be fulfilled during this age.

 

[CG Didymus]

No justice system should be ordained with God-like authority which is deemed infallible. In Judaism our Prophets and Rabbis are not considered God-like nor infallible.

What could possibly go wrong? In other threads some of us expressed our worry about having to obey and follow their laws and what their UHJ might decree. They said not to worry, because the laws only apply to Baha'is. Which I don't understand, will their be people and I suppose nations that have their own laws? Yet, there will be world peace? I really thought world peace comes because all people will follow God's laws.

 

[CG Didymus]

We are in the last days, which is a period of time, an age. All the prophecies will be fulfilled during this age.

Wait, if we're in the "last days" then after these days end, isn't that when the Messiah comes and ushers in the Messianic era? Anyway, I've "hounded" you enough. See you tomorrow. Oh, and what are the other Baha'is doing? This is a form of "teaching" the Faith. Where are they?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes another "Hmmm?" So this implies that if a person "does their homework" they will find the proof that, indeed, Baha'u'llah has ushered in world peace... even though the world is still engaging in constant war. But it's coming. It in the making.

Sorry but no. The world is not still engaging in constant war, and there is evidence that we are moving towards peace. The sincere seekers of Truth will be able to find that evidence -- and they will recognize it when they see it, because they won't be biased by their religious prejudice and because they will want to know if Baha'u'llah's claims are true.... The other people who think they know it all will insist there are no signs of moving towards peace and they will never know the Truth.

Years ago, from another forum, I got a post from someone who listed the signs that we were moving towards peace, but I doubt I could ever find that now.

 

[dybmh]

What could possibly go wrong? In other threads some of us expressed our worry about having to obey and follow their laws and what their UHJ might decree. They said not to worry, because the laws only apply to Baha'is. Which I don't understand, will their be people and I suppose nations that have their own laws? Yet, there will be world peace? I really thought world peace comes because all people will follow God's laws.

It's a terrible idea for a modern Justice System.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wait, if we're in the "last days" then after these days end, isn't that when the Messiah comes and ushers in the Messianic era? Anyway, I've "hounded" you enough. See you tomorrow. Oh, and what are the other Baha'is doing? This is a form of "teaching" the Faith. Where are they?

The last days refers to the days after the Messiah comes and it extends through the Messianic Age. I am not sure when that age is supposed to end, but it will last for at least 1000 years from 1863 AD, although it could extend longer. I'll get back you you if I can uncover any more information.

Yeah, where are the other Baha'is? They have left me high and dry to fend for myself.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wait, if we're in the "last days" then after these days end, isn't that when the Messiah comes and ushers in the Messianic era?

I see you are still here, and I just found an article that refers to the the End of Days, which is the same thing as the last days....
As it says, Baha'is see “the end of days” as the end of one major stage of history and the beginning of a new one. Baha’is believe that this transition is happening right now and that we are living participants in it. Rather than in a 24-hour day, it will occur over a “day” of many generations. The end result will be a global worldwide civilization where the “earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.”

So the answer I gave you before is correct, the last days refers to an age.

A Baha’i Perspective on the End of Days

05/20/2011 12:58 pm ET Updated Jul 20, 2011

This Saturday, May 21, 2011, is yet another date in a long list of days on which some have confidently predicted “the end of days” or “judgment day.” We even read reports that a man in New York has disposed of his entire life savings and spent it on advertising billboards announcing this impending doomsday. This has happened many times before. It will happen again.

Inevitably, the fixed date comes and goes. Afterwards, the sun still shines, the birds still sing and many have a good laugh at those who were absolutely convinced they would be taken up in a shower of light while others are “left behind” to suffer eternal wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The Baha’is have an interesting and different take on the end times scenario. Rather than expecting a Hollywood-screenwriter’s dream that will occur within 24 hours, like this coming Saturday, they instead see “the end of days” as the end of one major stage of history and the beginning of a new one. This is harder to sell to Hollywood, but easier to reconcile with basic common sense and a modest understanding of history.

Baha’is believe that this transition is happening right now and that we are living participants in it. Rather than in a 24-hour day, it will occur over a “day” of many generations. The end result will be a global worldwide civilization where the “earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.” Does this sound crazy? What about trying to tell people in the mid-1840s (a time, incidentally, when 100,000 “Millerites” across the United States expected that the “end of days” would occur) that within just 160 years we would have been to the moon and back, and that a man whose father was from Kenya would be the President of the United States.

The bottom line: I confidently predict that we will all still be here on May 22, 2011. I am also confident that our descendants will still be here on May 22, 2111. And by then, the world will look even more like this visionary picture of the future outlined in 1936 by the head of the Baha’i Faith at that time.

When the sun rises this Sunday, and you hear the melodious sounds of birds outside, would it not be inspiring to awaken with a conviction that we had all been “left behind” to build a world civilization, reflecting heaven on earth, day by day, heart to heart and generation to generation?

A Baha'i Perspective on the End of Days | HuffPost