How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[danieldemol]

These words have different meanings. Remove means take (something) away or off from the position occupied whereas recover means to bring back to normal position or condition.

In the context of the normal position being Israel it precisely does mean moving them back to Israel or removing them from those other lands.

Even if it was interpreted to mean the remnant of Jews in these places would be recovered and then move back to Israel that does not mean that the entire remnant of Jews (every single Jew) living in those places would move back to Israel.

Actually remnant means the remainder or as you said, what is left. Since it did not say the part of what's left will be recovered but rather that what's left will be recovered, you are pulling the wool over your own eyes to suggest that since it does not use the word entirety it is not referring to the entirety.

If I were to say, I removed what was left of the cookies in the jar it would be understood that I was reffering to all of what's left, not a part of it. There is no ambiguity here, you are clutching at straws that simply do not exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

Let's just pick one messianic prophecy to start with. The Messiah is to usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations. "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isaiah 2:4

This simply has not happened yet. since the time of Jesus, we have had 2000 years of international warfare. Nor did Jesus act as a judge between the nations. The same could be said of the Baha'u'llah -- he did not usher in an era of worldwide peace.

So I'm sorry -- the two of them simply don't qualify as Messiah. At least, not the Messiah prophesied by the Tanakh.

It always helps to look at the context of the verse you are citing:

Isaiah 2
1 the word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

So it shall come to pass in the last days that he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

The verse says that "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more" but it does not say when that will happen. An age is a period of time. Nowhere in any scriptures does it say that peace will be established during the lifetime of the Messiah, and nowhere in scriptures does it say when during the last days world peace would be established.

Baha'is believe that the last days were ushered in by the coming of the Messiah (Baha'u'llah), so we are living in the last days now, also referred to as the Messianic Age. Baha'u'llah has ushered in an "age" of worldwide peace. During this age, world peace will be established and all the prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled will be fulfilled.

 

[dybmh]

Therefore there is no evidence that Baha'u'llah ushered in an age of worldwide peace.

 

[Trailblazer]

In the context of the normal position being Israel it precisely does mean moving them back to Israel or removing them from those other lands.

Actually remnant means the remainder or as you said, what is left. Since it did not say the part of what's left will be recovered but rather that what's left will be recovered, you are pulling the wool over your own eyes to suggest that since it does not use the word entirety it is not referring to the entirety.

Actually remnant means the remainder or as I said, what is left. Since it did not say the all of what's left will be recovered but rather that what's left will be recovered, you are making assumptions when you suggest that it means all of what's left will be recovered since it does not say “all.”

At a certain point people have to use logic and reason and understand that ALL of the Jews living in the world are not going to move back to Israel because they won’t choose to and because there is not enough room for all the Jews in the world in Israel. So to say that the prophecy is not fulfilled until ALL the Jews in the world move back to Israel is just a way for Jews to keep waiting for the Messiah.

If I were to say, I removed what was left of the cookies in the jar it would be understood that I was reffering to all of what's left, not a part of it. There is no ambiguity here, you are clutching at straws that simply do not exist.

That analogy does not hold water, for reasons I stated above, and because people are not cookies one can remove from a jar. In case you have not figured this out by now, prophecies can be interpreted in various ways so they can have more than one meaning, and that is why people argue about them endlessly, since they believe only they are right about the meaning. I consider that egotistical so I am done arguing.

I have no need to clutch at any straws because I know that Baha’u’llah was the Messiah. It is the Jews and Christians who are still clutching at straws and trying to make the prophecies mean what they want them to mean so they can continue waiting for the Messiah they have made in their own image.

 

[Trailblazer]

Therefore there is no evidence that Baha'u'llah ushered in an age of worldwide peace.

There is evidence, if you look for it, but I am not going to do your homework.

 

[dybmh]

There is evidence, if you look for it, but I am not going to do your homework.

Just another exaggerated claim...

 

[Earthtank]

srael has millions of pilgrims each year going to give praise to One God.

If that's one of your criteria for a place being the center of faith then, Saudi (Mecca and Madinah) has you beat by a few million, at least, each month pre covid.

Oh and its Palestine, not Israel.

 

[danieldemol]

At a certain point people have to use logic and reason and understand that ALL of the Jews living in the world are not going to move back to Israel because they won’t choose to and because there is not enough room for all the Jews in the world in Israel.

That just shows the lack of foresight of Isaiah, it doesn't mean words don't mean what they really mean.

You start out with the assumption that Isaiah was logical and had foresight, then try to read back into the text knowledge that we have in hindsight, but that is a process of eisegesis not exegesis.

 

[dybmh]

 

[Trailblazer]

Just another exaggerated claim...

Believe whatever you want to believe. It is no skin off my nose because I know who Baha'u'llah was.

 

[dybmh]

How can the Jew reject Baha'u'llah? Because the Baha'u'llah says that not only is he and the other Messengers infallible, but this God-like infallible status is transferred to the decisions made by the Universal House of Justice.

The Bahá'í Writings addressing the issue of infallibility indicate that the Universal House of Justice is infallibly guided in any decision it makes in the discharge of its responsibilities. Referring to the Universal House of Justice (as well as the Guardian), 'Abdu'l-Bahá declared: “Whatsoever they decide is of God.” He further wrote: “Whatever will be its decision, by majority vote, shall be the real truth, inasmuch as that House is under the protection, unerring guidance and care of the one true Lord. He shall guard it from error and will protect it under the wing of His sanctity and infallibility. Moreover, the House of Justice is “the source of all good and freed from all error.”

Bahá'u'lláh commanded His followers to obey “the Ministers of the House of Justice”: “It is incumbent upon all to be obedient unto them.” 'Abdu'l-Bahá expanded upon the significance and dimensions of such obedience. He explained that obedience to the decisions of the Universal House of Justice “is a bounden and essential duty and an absolute obligation, and there is no escape for anyone.”42 God “has commanded the firm believers to obey that blessed, sanctified and all-subduing body, whose sovereignty is divinely ordained and of the Kingdom of Heaven and whose laws are inspired and spiritual.”

The Infallibility of the Universal House of Justice​

No justice system should be ordained with God-like authority which is deemed infallible. In Judaism our Prophets and Rabbis are not considered God-like nor infallible.

 

[rational experiences]

Science.

Discussing conditions of creation involving self. To teach.

Proved wandering asteroid stars were putting gases released out of moving stone or rock bodies into space.

Earth O God a cycle O passed through spatial history black irradiating holes.

Jesus event a core release event changed space.

Science said review Jesus changing current recorded data that earth would have the event returned again in a future after the reactive cause.

Was known.

Shroud the evidence.

Humans always needed evidence. Jesus argument stigmata came and went. His witnessed Christians knew it real. Followed him challenged hierarchy temple sciences.

Pyramid temple conversion philosopher stone.

Rome even banned Alchemy as any unnatural change to God mass.

Was proven relative.

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you believe that only an infinite God could pay the price of sin? I believe that is why Bahulllah isn't the Messiah; why would there be a Messiah other than the one who paid the price of sin and is God?

Personally, I like some sort of karma and reincarnation set up. That way everybody gets a chance at living under different circumstances. And then when they've grown enough spiritually they move on into some spiritual world or whatever it may be.

 

[CG Didymus]

You said: So, no, you can't back up any prophecy.

That is absolutely false.

What prophecy do you think you've backed up? That is convincing to anyone but Baha'is? With Daniel 8 you found a reasonable alternative interpretation. It was about Antiochus Epiphanes. You even gave the year it happened.

 

[Trailblazer]

That just shows the lack of foresight of Isaiah, it doesn't mean words don't mean what they really mean.

You start out with the assumption that Isaiah was logical and had foresight, then try to read back into the text knowledge that we have in hindsight, but that is a process of eisegesis not exegesis.

I never said that Isaiah was logical or had foresight; I was saying that now, when we read and interpret the prophecies and try to figure out what they mean, we should try to be logical.

Isaiah may or may not have had foresight, but I think he probably did, because prophecies are written in a way that they can have more than one meaning. I don't think there would be any way to know exactly what those prophecies meant (how they would be fulfilled by the Messiah) until we actually had a Messiah who showed up and fulfilled the prophecies; but after that it would be possible to recognize the Messiah by looking at the prophecies and seeing how they align with what the Messiah actually did.

The caveat is that if Jews and Christians are relying upon their preconceived idea of what the Messiah has to do in order to fulfill the prophecies, an idea that came about from their personal interpretations of the prophecies (which really amounts to what they want the Messiah to be like and what they want him to do in order to raise their religion to a position of supremacy), then they will never recognize the Messiah because they will always find ways to interpret those prophecies so that the true Messiah does not measure up and meet their expectations.

Like all scriptures, the prophecies were written in such a way that they separate the wheat from the chaff, as Jesus said. The wheat will be able to recognize the Messiah because they will be sincere humble seekers of truth, but the chaff will never recognize the Messiah because they will be so sure they know it all, so they will keep waiting for the Messiah they have made in their own image and thus they will miss the boat that already sailed out to sea.

 

[CG Didymus]

So besides Micah 7:12 what other Tanach prophecies were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah?

What are some of the Jewish interpretations of this verse? Especially if it is in context. Which the Baha'i interpretation isn't. They only use that one verse.

 

[Skywalker]

Personally, I like some sort of karma and reincarnation set up. That way everybody gets a chance at living under different circumstances. And then when they've grown enough spiritually they move on into some spiritual world or whatever it may be.

Jesus had to have been God, because a finite human being cannot pay the infinite penalty of sin. An infinite God can pay the infinite penalty of sin.

 

[Trailblazer]

What prophecy do you think you've backed up? That is convincing to anyone but Baha'is? With Daniel 8 you found a reasonable alternative interpretation. It was about Antiochus Epiphanes. You even gave the year it happened.

You are never going to prove anything by insisting the Baha'is are wrong and there has to be another interpretation that is right. You will just continue spinning your wheels until the day you die. Apparently you imagine there is some resolution and you are going to find it if you keep analyzing the prophecies to death, and that is your choice to do so.

I am not playing this game anymore, as it is a game of clashing egos. Take a look at what I just posted and try to understand what I was getting at, because it applies to you as well as it applies to Jews and Christians. #855

 

[CG Didymus]

Like all scriptures, the prophecies were written in such a way that they separate the wheat from the chaff, as Jesus said. The wheat will be able to recognize the Messiah because they will be sincere humble seekers of truth, but the chaff will never recognize the Messiah because they will be so sure they know it all, so they will keep waiting for the Messiah they have made in their own image and thus they will miss the boat that already sailed out to sea.

Hmmm? So that implies that people that don't recognize Baha'u'llah are not humble and not sincere seekers of truth but are chaff? Really? I don't know it all so I ask questions of people who claim they have The Truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

No justice system should be ordained with God-like authority which is deemed infallible. In Judaism our Prophets and Rabbis are not considered God-like nor infallible.

Times have changed since the Dispensation of Moses, so God has adjusted His program to suit the times we live in.