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Featured How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Dec 30, 2020.

  1. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    That's no different from the other miracles of Jesus. The Talmud is wrong when it says that the miracles of Jesus are sorcery because there are miracles in the Tanakh, let the talking donkey and the pillar of cloud that led the Hebrews in the wilderness.
     
  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Sorry. No. It's not intended as metaphor if the words begin with "Truly I tell you..."
    I don't see it. This chapter talks about Moses, it does not come close to saying, "You will receive anything you ask for." Maybe quote the verses if you think I missed it.
     
  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    He both raised them and lowered them. Both are transgressions.
     
  4. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus didnt lower the standards. He said that Moses allowing divorce was a concession to our hard hearts. Moses didn't say that divorce was ideal.
     
  5. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Anything we ask for is the metaphor.

    What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites

    Only a certain group of Midianites was judged. The rest were spared totally.

     
  6. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Messiah was to be buried with the rich in his death. Jesus was also a man of sorrows. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

     
  7. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Why wouldn't Jesus fulfill the second coming prophecies himself? Saying it would have to be Bahullah is like saying there are two Messiahs. God does all things decently and in order. There's only a need for one Messiah.
     
  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    You don't know the standards. That's why you're missing it. He definitely lowered the standards.
    Your still missing how Jesus lowered the standards.
    Nope. He said, "Truly."
    Nope. This has nothing to do with the belief-magic perscribed by Jesus in the Christian bible. You're not quoting the verses because they show that you're wrong.
    This has nothing to do with the credibility of the Christian bible. the Christian bible says that a person receives whatever they want if they believe. It's an exaggeration.It doesn't work. If the Christian bible exaggerated about this, it probably exaggerated about other things too.

    18Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

    20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

    21Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
     
  9. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    truly isnt the metaphor. Anything we ask for is the metaphor.

    The Talmud says that Jesus was a sorcerer. That isn't Tanakh evidence.

    Miracles are not magic. Magic is being a spiritual mover and shaker without submitting to God. God is not a wizard.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I cannot address that since I do not know what Baha'u'llah was referring to; in other words I do not know what law in the Torah Jesus allegedly annulled, so to jump on that and say "yay, we got those Baha'is now" is to me totally unjust; but that is just how I operate, I need all the facts before I make any determinations. Other people jump to conclusions because it supports their beliefs and I consider that unjust.
    Again, I would have to see actual scriptures where Jesus said He would not make any changes to the law. It is very possible, even probable, that those scriptures were misinterpreted thus misunderstood.

    That said, it is a Baha'i belief that every new Messenger of God has the right to change the law, abrogating the former law, and He does do that because laws need to be updated in every new age. Do you really believe that the Torah laws that have homosexuals and adulterers put to death are appropriate in the present age? Were they ever appropriate?

    Baha'is believe that the spiritual teachings of religion are eternal, they never change, but the social teachings and laws need to change over time.

    “These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.” Some Answered Questions, p. 47

    “The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, p. 48
     
  11. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Nope.

    21Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
    The Christian bible portrays Jesus are practicing belief-magic. Jesus is hungry and withers a fig tree because it didn't have any fruit for him. There is no mention of God in this entire event. He tells people that their "belief" can do the same thing.

    Jesus never mentions submitting to God. There is no humility. its 100% belief.
     
  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Truly isn't a metaphor. Jesus was saying that literally. But whatever you ask for in prayer is not literal.

    Faith isn't magic.The fig tree miracle was part of the parables of Jesus. There is no mention of God because it's assumed Jesus is God. He was subtle in saying it as to not draw undue attention to himself and confuse himself with God the father.

    Jesus said in the Garden, not my will but thine be done. That was Jesus being humble. All beliefs involve faith.
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    What does the existence of the temple and the total regathering of Israel have to do with whether the Old and New Covenant can't be followed together?
     
  14. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Just because something is confusing by modern terminology doesn't mean it's a mistake. In the first century, it wasn't how could be Jewish and believe in Jesus, it was, how could you be a gentile and believe in Jesus? The false doctrine of the Judaizers was related to that.
     
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I think this is a little unfair considering the judgements that are made against "Jews". That's unjust as well. Anytime someone makes a judgement about someone based on their religious affiliation, that's jumping to conclusions too.
    If Baha’u’llah's words are 100% true then Jesus annuled "the most weighty of the laws of Moses". I don't see anyway around it.
    It's a really good point. But that doesn't change the fact that Jesus said he wasn't going to change the law and then made some major changes. It's dishonest.
    Everytime a new Messenger is added to the list in the chain it makes it harder and harder to prove that each one a 100% perfect Manifestation of God.
     
  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I think you've lost track of the conversation. We weren't talking about the New Covenant at that time.

    Here's what you said:

    Then I said:

    The existence of the temple and the Jewish people in unity are, imo, the qualifications of the Jewish Messiah.

    The reason that the Old Covenant and the New Covenant cannot be followed together is because the definition of the New Covenant is that the Old Covenant is dissolved. Hebrews 8:13.
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is not the way I interpret scriptures. "Truly I tell you..." is just a way to emphasize what Jesus was going to say, it does not mean it is literally true that if someone has faith they can move a mountain.
    The Christian Bible is less credible to you for that reason, but credibility is an individual thing, so that does not make it less credible to everyone. The upshot is that I do not think credibility is a good criterion for deciding what scriptures are ‘better’ since it is subjective.
    Indeed they do, but they do not always quote the Bible, even if they refer to it. Among other texts, you will find references to the Bible in The Kitáb-i-Íqán and in Some Answered Questions, in Part Two: SOME CHRISTIAN SUBJECTS.
     
  18. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    The mistake people made in the past (assuming that the story is true) was thinking that the miracles = messiah.
     
  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The existence of the Jewish people in unity will happen when Jesus returns. Then all of Israel will be regathered.

    The Old Covenant was dissolved in the context of the Gentiles who follow Jesus.
     
  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    If "Truly" doesn't mean "Truly" that makes the Christian bible not a credible souce. If it's words aren't taken literally, then it calls into question whether or not Jesus literally fulfilled any of the prophecies.
    The conversation started because you were saying that Jews don't realize that Jesus is a Messiah. I said that no one really knows what Jesus said or did, so anyone including Jews should not be disparaged because they don't accept a claim of Messiah status without credible information. I didn't say that one scripture was better or worse because of credibility. I said that a Messianic claim needs credible evidence. If the texts are not understood literally, then the text themselves are not credible evidence.
     
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