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Featured How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Dec 30, 2020.

  1. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Bible is against magic. Jesus was not a sorcerer like the Talmud says.
     
  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    It wasn't all Paul's doing. Here's what Baha’u’llah says:

    "this youthful Nazarene [Jesus], who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the law of divorce and of the sabbath day—the most weighty of all the laws of Moses."

    (The Kitáb-i-Íqán)
    www.bahai.org/r/570360520

    Not only that, but this contradicts the Qur'an 2:40:

    "O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and fulfill My covenant [upon you] that I will fulfill your covenant [from Me], and be afraid of [only] Me."

    Sahih International

    So. Jesus made changes to the law even though he said he wouldn't. Baha’u’llah endorses it eventhough it contradicts the Qur'an. It doesn't make sense to ask a Jew to accept all three Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha’u’llah as perfect manifestations of God if they contradict themselves and each other.
     
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  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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  4. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Not anything we ask for in prayer. Only if it's within God's will and prayed for humbly and patiently.

    The Old Testament and Tanakh also mention faith.
     
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  5. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    I believe that Jesus is God. I don't believe that Bahulllah was God and Muhammad was a prophet of God.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Much of the Christian Bible is 'sayings' of Jesus which are not to be taken literally but rather metaphorically. Obviously, to me, Matthew 21:21-22 are not meant to be taken literally, because nobody can move a mountain just because that have faith and not all things that are asked in prayer will be answered.

    But what we were discussing is whether Jesus was the Messiah or not, and the Christian claims related to that go back to the Old Testament prophecies that claim Jesus fulfilled. The main reason I believe Jesus was the Messiah is because of what is in the Baha’i Writings but I can also look at the Old Testament to see if He fulfilled the prophecies, according to what it says Jesus did in the New Testament.
    That does speak to credibility, but I consider authenticity of the scriptures far more important than what is believable, so my questions would be more along the lines of: How do we know that what is in the New Testament is anything that Jesus actually said, and how do we know what is in the Tanakh is what Moses or the other prophets actually said. Of course, since the Writings of Baha’u’llah were written by Him and stamped with His official seal, and we have the original Tablets, authenticity of His Writings is a nonissue.
     
  7. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Therefore, Matthew 21 is misleading. It's an exaggeratted claim.
    Can you find anything close to "You will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." in the Tanach?
     
  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    It was intended to be taken literally. Verse 21 says: "Truly I tell you..."
    No. Sorry. We were talking about the Christian bible's credibility. It is less credible than Tanach, because Tanach does not promise magical powers based on the strength of a person's conviction.
    Let's look at the Baha'i writings. I'm guessing that they reference the Christian bible.
     
  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Ignored: random pronouncement of your faith.
     
  11. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Language being metaphorical is not exagarated.

    The destruction of the Canaanites. Some fled and there were still Canaanites in the land, so they were not utterly destroyed.
     
  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Nope, he was talking about moving a mountain and withering a fig tree. That's magic.

    Matthew 21:18

    18Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

    20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

    21Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”​
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The existence of the New Covenant is not adding changes to the law. The first believers in Jesus were called Nozrim, not Christians.
     
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    The verse says, "Truly I tell you..." It's not metaphorical.
    Cite the verses and we'll compare.
     
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Ignored: random irrelevant off-topic spam
     
  16. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    You mentioned a contradiction between Jesus saying he didn't abolish the law and there being a new covenant.
     
  17. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The metaphor is in anything we ask for in prayer. It doesn't literally mean anything, it means anything that is within the will of God. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me doesn't mean I can fly.

    Numbers 31 mentions the destruction of the Midianites. Later in the Tanakh the Midianites are mentioned. That doesn't mean that the Midianite people were all wiped out it meant a certain clan was.
     
  18. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    What I said was that Jesus made changes to the law eventhough he said he wouldn't. This was confirmed by Baha’u’llah, but it contradicts the Qur'an's statement about the original covenant. The New Covenant is a different topic.
     
  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Bahulllah not being God and Muhammad not being a prophet have nothing to do with whether Jesus is the Messiah.
     
  20. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus raised the standards of the law with a higher level. He said that if someone looks with lust they commit adultery in their heart. That is consistent with the ethics of the Torah.
     
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