How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[rational experiences]

Heavens gases backs onto empty space.

Our life backing.

Science said it was radiation.

Garden animals humans live in one heavenly mass only water oxygenated.

We have no ownership in radiating gas history the backdrop to our God world holy water

Science uses holy water to keep their reaction cooled.

We own holy water not science.

Animal Life is not my backing either which a string theist lied about.

In human history a mutated human became ape like by having water mass removed to a lesser body

It got replaced as ice melted.
We were healed as ice returned and cooled the amount of burning gases in evaporation conditions. Water in heavens overheated.

Took a long time to heal damaged DNA.

Healing is not having cells replaced.
It is the body ridding itself of damaged cell structures.

 

[Skywalker]

You're still stuck in the past.

We don't have a temple, the Jewish people are not united. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

The historical evidence is that the early Christians believed that their faith in Jesus brought salvation for themselves. That is not a Jewish practice.

One cant be Jewish and Christian by modern definitions of religion has nothing to do with whether Jesus is the Messiah. God is about relationship, not religion.

Judaism came from God and is also a relationship and not a religion. I believe that the Judaism that came from the Pharisees is a religion not a relationship. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

The first followers of Jesus were essentially all ethnically Jewish or Jewish proselytes. Jesus was Jewish, preached to the Jewish people, and called from them his first followers. According to McGrath, Jewish Christians, as faithful religious Jews, "regarded their movement as an affirmation of every aspect of contemporary Judaism, with the addition of one extra belief-that Jesus was the Messiah."

Believing in Jesus is not a Jewish practice in the dispensation of history where the term Christianity was used.

 

[Skywalker]

Nah. You can't tell the difference between Christianity and Judaism.

During the time of the Jewish Christians, the term Christianity didn't even exist. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

Jewish Christians were the original members of the Jewish movement that later became Christianity.[12][44][1][2] In the earliest stage the community was made up of all those Jews who believed that Jesus was the Jewish messiah.[1][2][45] As Christianity grew and developed, Jewish Christians became only one strand of the early Christian community, characterised by combining the confession of Jesus as Christ with continued observance of the Torah[12] and adherence to Jewish traditions such as Sabbath observance, Jewish calendar, Jewish laws and customs, circumcision, kosher diet and synagogue attendance, and by a direct genetic relationship to the earliest followers of Jesus.

 

[dybmh]

One cant be Jewish and Christian by modern definitions of religion has nothing to do with whether Jesus is the Messiah. God is about relationship, not religion.

If the relationship is to or through Jesus it's not a Jewish relationship.

Judaism came from God and is also a relationship and not a religion.

Nope, it's a religion.

Believing in Jesus is not a Jewish practice in the dispensation of history where the term Christianity was used.

Worshipping to or through Jesus was not ever a Jewish practice.

 

[rational experiences]

Heavens gases backs onto empty space.

Our life backing.

Science said it was radiation.

Garden animals humans live in one heavenly mass only water oxygenated.

We have no ownership in radiating gas history the backdrop to our God world holy water

Science uses holy water to keep their reaction cooled.

We own holy water not science.

Animal Life is not my backing either which a string theist lied about.

In human history a mutated human became ape like by having water mass removed to a lesser body

It got replaced as ice melted.
We were healed as ice returned and cooled the amount of burning gases in evaporation conditions. Water in heavens overheated.

Took a long time to heal damaged DNA.

Healing is not having cells replaced.
It is the body ridding itself of damaged cell structures.

I believe in my life.
I believe what healer medical science taught.

Ice returned every December
combatted summer radiation increase maintained a stable animal and baby genetic life. Returned and healed due to ice mass keeping water cooled.

Jesus baby teaching first.

Adult reasoning why life got sacrificed secondary not first.

Two healthy natural parents first. Not science.
Had first babies.

Baby adult man sacrificed life science.

Adult scientist coercer.

Human mother spoke on behalf of baby life lost to man adult satanist. Science converting cold radiation.

 

[dybmh]

During the time of the Jewish Christians, the term Christianity didn't even exist.

Praying to or through Jesus would have been called idol worship at that time.

 

[Skywalker]

If the relationship is to or through Jesus it's not a Jewish relationship.

Nope, it's a religion.

Worshipping to or through Jesus was not ever a Jewish practice.

Doesn't your belief that the relationship with God in Judaism isn't through Jesus hint that Judaism is a relationship with God?

Regarding worshiping Jesus not being a Jewish practice, something can in a sense be two religions at the same time, because in the first century, the term Christianity didn't exist until the division between Jewish and gentile believers in Jesus.

 

[Skywalker]

Praying to or through Jesus would have been called idol worship at that time.

A relationship with God through Jesus is not idolatry, because Job mentioned that there is no daysman between him and God. He was hinting of the future hope of there being a mediator between him and God. This belief is supported by the Scriptures, because the priests in the Old Testament had the role of being like a mediator.

 

[Skywalker]

Praying to or through Jesus would have been called idol worship at that time.

Only within certain sects of Judaism. Christianity was a Jewish sect even though it wasn't called Christianity until it spread to the gentiles. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

The inclusion of non-Jews led to a growing split between Jewish Christians (i.e. the Jewish followers of Jesus) and non-Jewish Christians. From the latter, Nicene Christianity eventually arose, while mainstream Judaism developed into Rabbinic Judaism. Jewish Christians drifted apart from mainstream Judaism, eventually becoming a minority strand which had mostly disappeared by the fifth century. Jewish–Christian gospels have been lost except for fragments, so there is considerable uncertainty as to the scriptures used by this group.

 

[dybmh]

Doesn't your belief that the relationship with God in Judaism isn't through Jesus hint that Judaism is a relationship with God?

no.

Regarding worshiping Jesus not being a Jewish practice, something can in a sense be two religions at the same time, because in the first century, the term Christianity didn't exist until the division between Jewish and gentile believers in Jesus.

Nope. Sorry. Worshipping to or through Jesus would have immediately identified a different religion.

A relationship with God through Jesus is not idolatry, because Job mentioned that there is no daysman between him and God. He was hinting of the future hope of there being a mediator between him and God. This belief is supported by the Scriptures, because the priests in the Old Testament had the role of being like a mediator.

No where in Tanach is there anyone praying to or through a mediator. Job did not pray to or through a mediator. Praying to or though a mediator is not Judaism. Not in the past, not in the future. The book of Job is irrelevant.

Only within certain sects of Judaism. Christianity was a Jewish sect even though it wasn't called Christianity until it spread to the gentiles.

Nope. Praying to or through Jesus would have been considered idol worship.

 

[Skywalker]

no.

Nope. Sorry. Worshipping to or through Jesus would have immediately identified a different religion.

No where in Tanach is there anyone praying to or through a mediator. Job did not pray to or through a mediator. Praying to or though a mediator is not Judiasm. Not in the past, not in the future. The book of Job is irrelevant.
Nope. Praying to or through Jesus would have been considered idol worship.

There are different interpretations of the book of Job. Some people think Satan was part of a divine council with other holy angels, and others believe that Satan is identified as different from the holy angels, because he appeared with them and wasn't described as one of them. Jews don't really believe in Satan as the leader of demons, but the Pharisees during the days of Jesus did. That's why I believe it's very possible that Job was talking about the future possibility of a mediator, when he said in Job 9:33 that there is no daysman between him and God.

 

[Skywalker]

no.

Nope. Sorry. Worshipping to or through Jesus would have immediately identified a different religion.

No where in Tanach is there anyone praying to or through a mediator. Job did not pray to or through a mediator. Praying to or though a mediator is not Judaism. Not in the past, not in the future. The book of Job is irrelevant.
Nope. Praying to or through Jesus would have been considered idol worship.

I believe that Judaism is the religion of God and only one religion came from God-Judaism. Being Jewish and Christian isn't a contradict because being a Christian is more of a relationship than a religion based on the laws of Moses.

 

[dybmh]

There are different interpretations of the book of Job. Some people think Satan was part of a divine council with other holy angels, and others believe that Satan is identified as different from the holy angels, because he appeared with them and wasn't described as one of them. Jews don't really believe in Satan as the leader of demons, but the Pharisees during the days of Jesus did. That's why I believe it's very possible that Job was talking about the future possibility of a mediator, when he said in Job 9:33 that there is no daysman between him and God.

Nowhere in Tanach is anyone worshipping to or through a mediator. If a person worships to or through Jesus that is not Judaism.

I believe that Judaism is the religion of God and only one religion came from God-Judaism. Being Jewish and Christian isn't a contradict because being a Christian is more of a relationship than a religion based on the laws of Moses.

If a person worships to or through Jesus they are not practicing Judaism.

 

[Skywalker]

Nowhere in Tanach is anyone worshipping to or through a mediator. If a person worships to or through Jesus that is not Judaism.

If a person worships to or through Jesus they are not practicing Judaism.

Wouldn't there being a Messiah mean that people would follow his teachings? That belief doesn't create a paradox "how can there be two religions in one"?

 

[Skywalker]

Nowhere in Tanach is anyone worshipping to or through a mediator. If a person worships to or through Jesus that is not Judaism.

If a person worships to or through Jesus they are not practicing Judaism.

Job referred to God as his redeemer, in Job 19:25-27. Job said he knows that his redeemer lives. Jesus isn't just our redeemer from sin, but he is our redeemer from not being able to come before God. Job didn't have the type of relationship with God that we can have today.

 

[Skywalker]

Nowhere in Tanach is anyone worshipping to or through a mediator. If a person worships to or through Jesus that is not Judaism.

If a person worships to or through Jesus they are not practicing Judaism.

I believe that only one religion came from God-Judaism, and being a Christian is about having a relationship with Jesus. But one can be Jewish and have a relationship with the Messiah of Israel. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

The split of Christianity and Judaism took place during the first centuries ]While the First Jewish–Roman War and the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE were main events, the separation was a long-term process, in which the boundaries were not clear-cut.

 

[dybmh]

I believe that only one religion came from God-Judaism, and being a Christian is about having a relationship with Jesus. But one can be Jewish and have a relationship with the Messiah of Israel.

People make mistakes.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well. I'm looking at the book by William Sears. In it, he claims that Ezekia 43:2 and Ezekial 43:4 refer to Baha'u'llah. But, these verses do not speak about the Messiah at all. So I wouldn't claim these as relevant at all to whether or not Baha'u'llah is the Messiah.

Apparently what you do not realize is that the book by William Sears is about the Return of Christ, not about the Messiah. It just so happens that the return of Christ was the Messiah, but it is a given in the Baha’i Faith that they are the same person, so Sears had no need to mention it.

I'm really only looking at the Tanach prophecies that Baha'i claim are speaking about him. If there are verses which support this idea that the Messiah will be a reflection of God, I'm happy to look at those.

It is all a matter of how you interpret the verses in the Tanakh. If you are expecting a man called David, who will rule like a king, that is all you will be ‘willing’ to see, because you will be blinded by your confirmation bias. IndigoChild5559 said: “Actually, the Messiah IS referred to in the Tanakh as David. Sorry, my friend” in post #566. She will never be able to see anything else but what she believes because she has her mind made up and is not even willing to look at how Baha'u'llah might have fulfilled the Tanakh prophecies.

There is a better chance that Skywalker could come to believe that Baha’u’llah was the Messiah than that IndigoChild5559 ever would. Most Jews I have conversed with are this way; they are sure they are right and that Baha’u’llah could not be the Messiah because they believe they know exactly what the Messiah will do, when and how and where. The problem is, what they believe about the Messiah made in their own image is not in the verses of the Tanakh. In that way these Jews are very similar to Christians who believe that Jesus is the Messiah that will return, having absolutely no verses to support that belief.

I have to say you are a notable exception because you are at least inquisitive and willing to converse about the possibilities.

If I have time, maybe I will look for some verses from the Tanakh that support this idea that the Messiah will be a reflection of God.

Perhaps then the next step is to look only at the verses which Baha'i claim show what the Messiah would do.

Since Baha’is believe that the Messiah will do many things, including but not limited to fulfilling the Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh, perhaps a better way to approach this is for you to find those verses in the Tanakh that you believe refer to the Messiah, and then I can explain how I believe that Baha’u’llah fulfilled them.

I read your write-up on Michah 7:12 as well as rosends analysis of who the "he" is in this verse. I think that it makes more sense that the "he" is the enemy. The reason is that verses 10,11,12, and 13 are all talking about the same subject which is the enemy. If verse 12 were talking about the Messiah, then that would be out of place. 7:7 is also not talking about the messiah, from my point of view. It's talking about God.

Baha’is believe that the Baha'u'llah was the Lord of all names and the Lord of Hosts, but please note that He never claimed to be God. Instead He said Worship none but God. Admittedly, the station of Baha'u'llah can be confusing to many people, as in many Writings it seems like He is claiming to be God, but this is a big subject, perhaps for another day.

“The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 272

“O kings of the earth! He Who is the sovereign Lord of all is come. The Kingdom is God’s, the omnipotent Protector, the Self-Subsisting. Worship none but God, and, with radiant hearts, lift up your faces unto your Lord, the Lord of all names. This is a Revelation to which whatever ye possess can never be compared, could ye but know it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 210

That does not mean that we believe that Baha’u’llah was God incarnate; we believe that He came in the station of the Father, and that is why He wrote:

“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

As such, I believe that “Lord” in Micah 7:7 through 7:12 refers to the Messiah, who was also the Lord of all name and the Lord of Hosts, and “he” in 7:12 refers to the Messiah and what he will do.

7 But I will hope in the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God shall hearken to me.

8 Rejoice not against me, my enemy; although I have fallen, I will rise; although I will sit in darkness, the Lord is a light to me.

9 I will bear the fury of the Lord-for I have sinned against Him-until He pleads my cause and executes justice for me. He shall take me out into the light; I will see His righteousness.

10 And my enemy shall see, and shame shall cover her who says to me, "Where is the Lord your God?" My eyes shall gaze upon her: now she shall become trodden as the mire of the streets.

11 "The day to build your walls-that day-its time is way off."

12 It is a day, and he shall come up to you: those from Assyria and the fortified cities, and from the fortress up to the river and the sea from the west, and the dwellers of the mountain.

 

[Skywalker]

People make mistakes.

Why is a Jew following the Messiah of Israel a mistake? It doesn't sound like a double religion, because the term Christianity didn't exist when the first followers of Jesus were around. They were called Nazarenes.

 

[Skywalker]

Apparently what you do not realize is that the book by William Sears is about the Return of Christ, not about the Messiah. It just so happens that the return of Christ was the Messiah, but it is a given in the Baha’i Faith that they are the same person, so Sears had no need to mention it.

It is all a matter of how you interpret the verses in the Tanakh. If you are expecting a man called David, who will rule like a king, that is all you will be ‘willing’ to see, because you will be blinded by your confirmation bias. IndigoChild5559 said: “Actually, the Messiah IS referred to in the Tanakh as David. Sorry, my friend” in post #566. She will never be able to see anything else but what she believes because she has her mind made up and is not even willing to look at how Baha'u'llah might have fulfilled the Tanakh prophecies.

There is a better chance that Skywalker could come to believe that Baha’u’llah was the Messiah than that IndigoChild5559 ever would. Most Jews I have conversed with are this way; they are sure they are right and that Baha’u’llah could not be the Messiah because they believe they know exactly what the Messiah will do, when and how and where. The problem is, what they believe about the Messiah made in their own image is not in the verses of the Tanakh. In that way these Jews are very similar to Christians who believe that Jesus is the Messiah that will return, having absolutely no verses to support that belief.

I have to say you are a notable exception because you are at least inquisitive and willing to converse about the possibilities.

If I have time, maybe I will look for some verses from the Tanakh that support this idea that the Messiah will be a reflection of God.

Since Baha’is believe that the Messiah will do many things, including but not limited to fulfilling the Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh, perhaps a better way to approach this is for you to find those verses in the Tanakh that you believe refer to the Messiah, and then I can explain how I believe that Baha’u’llah fulfilled them.

Baha’is believe that the Messiah was the Lord of all name and the Lord of Hosts.

“The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 272

“O kings of the earth! He Who is the sovereign Lord of all is come. The Kingdom is God’s, the omnipotent Protector, the Self-Subsisting. Worship none but God, and, with radiant hearts, lift up your faces unto your Lord, the Lord of all names. This is a Revelation to which whatever ye possess can never be compared, could ye but know it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 210

That does not mean that we believe that Baha’u’llah was God incarnate; we believe that He came in the station of the Father, and that is why He wrote:

“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

As such, I believe that “Lord” in Micah 7:7 through 7:12 refers to the Messiah, who was also the Lord of all name and the Lord of Hosts, and “he” in 7:12 refers to the Messiah and what he will do.

7 But I will hope in the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God shall hearken to me.

8 Rejoice not against me, my enemy; although I have fallen, I will rise; although I will sit in darkness, the Lord is a light to me.

9 I will bear the fury of the Lord-for I have sinned against Him-until He pleads my cause and executes justice for me. He shall take me out into the light; I will see His righteousness.

10 And my enemy shall see, and shame shall cover her who says to me, "Where is the Lord your God?" My eyes shall gaze upon her: now she shall become trodden as the mire of the streets.

11 "The day to build your walls-that day-its time is way off."

12 It is a day, and he shall come up to you: those from Assyria and the fortified cities, and from the fortress up to the river and the sea from the west, and the dwellers of the mountain.

I don't believe that there was a need for Baha'ullah to come in the station of the Father, because why would God come in the station of the Father and Son but not the Spirit?