How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[TransmutingSoul]

There are more than a stack of scriptures in the Bible that say we should beware of false prophets:

What Does the Bible Say About False Prophets?

But it would be interesting to go through that stack and see if there are any verses that say:

a) all Prophets are false, or
b) there can be no more true Prophets (Messengers) after the ones in the Bible.

John 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Of course, the way Jews wiggle out of those verses is by saying that the New Testament is not the Word of God, that only the Torah is the Word of God and thus Jesus was a false prophet.

I do not know what Muhammad said, but Baha'u'llah said to the Christians that if they had believed in Jesus they would have believed in Him.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

Of course, the way Christians wiggle out of those verses is by saying that the Writings of Baha'u'llah is not the Word of God, that only the Bible is the Word of God and thus Baha'u'llah was a false prophet.

Does anyone see how history repeats itself?

How logical is it to believe that Moses was the only true Prophet?
How logical is it to believe that Jesus is the Only Way?
At least Muslims believe that Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were all true Prophets.

So, as I see it, a question that remains is whether the Bab and Baha'u'llah were also true Prophets, in which case Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were also true Prophets.

I see we would have to see what the Tanakh says about Prophets and Truth, see why they have come to their conclusions.

The New Testament teachings about false Prophets would not be applicable to what they consider.

Have a read of Deuteronomy 13

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Mohammad believed that the Messiah only came for the Jews.

I don't know where you got that idea.

Christians and Jews believe that the Messiah will bring peace to the whole world.

That does not cut the mustard, because both Jews and Christians believe that they have the only true religion from God.

Moreover, the Jews and Christians do nit even agree about Jesus. How the hell is that ever going to bring peace to the whole world? (to the 71% if the world population that is not Jewish or Christian).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

According to the story, the Jewish people retained their identity and Jewish faith from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, through to the giving of the Torah even while in exhile in Egypt. So no, we didn't accept a new faith.

So if the Line continues through Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and brings all the Jews back to Israel.

How is that different?

Deuteronomy 13 Explains the process, does it not?

Always happy for a chat, as you know we will only always wish you health and happiness and faith in One G_d.

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Wolf]

One could ask God why that is so, why shoot the Messengers? Why does the Bible show God sends Messengers and Prophets in succession?

So what part is different? Are you talking about God's Laws?

If you are, is there precedence in the Bible showing this has happened in the past, that God changes Laws?

Does God say that Covenant will end?

Regards Tony

The issue is "Bible" implies a Christian understanding of the OT. This understanding is foreign to the Jewish Tanakh. God is god, he sent his prophets, gave his law, and he promised them a Messiah.
Then Christianity comes along, adds the Messiah, and Jesus said to reject those who come after him for they are false prophets.
Amd then came along Muhammad.
Amd then came along Bab and Baha'u'llah.
Each one adding and taking, each one reinventing what the last had, each claiming to be the final and complete version of Judaism. Never mind the fact these late comers are the ones Yahweh made his covenants with.

 

[Skywalker]

The issue is "Bible" implies a Christian understanding of the OT. This understanding is foreign to the Jewish Tanakh. God is god, he sent his prophets, gave his law, and he promised them a Messiah.
Then Christianity comes along, adds the Messiah, and Jesus said to reject those who come after him for they are false prophets.
Amd then came along Muhammad.
Amd then came along Bab and Baha'u'llah.
Each one adding and taking, each one reinventing what the last had, each claiming to be the final and complete version of Judaism. Never mind the fact these late comers are the ones Yahweh made his covenants with.

Jesus coming from Galilee parallels Isaiah 53:2 mentioning a root out of dry ground. Galilee is a town that could have been described as dry ground. Jesus came from humble origins.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The issue is "Bible" implies a Christian understanding of the OT. This understanding is foreign to the Jewish Tanakh. God is god, he sent his prophets, his law, and he promised them a Messiah.
Then Christianity comes along, adds the Messiah, and Jesus said to reject those who come after him for they are false prophets.
Amd then came along Muhammad.
Amd then came along Bab and Baha'u'llah.
Each one adding and taking, each one reinventing what the last had, each claiming to be the final and complete version of Judaism. Never mind the fact these late comers are the ones Yahweh made his covenants with.

I am not reading what is in the Tanakh in the light you offered. I do not see the scriptures say to reject a True Prophet.

First can we establish how accurate the translation are of the parts of the Tanakh that are quoted in the Bible.

We should establish a translation agreed upon to pursue what is written.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus coming from Galilee parallels Isaiah 53:2 mentioning a root out of dry ground. Galilee is a town that could have been described as dry ground. Jesus came from humble origins.

So you are prepared to see how Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are also mentioned, using the same reasoning?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the Christian "Messiah" and the Baha'i "Messiah" is nothing like the Jewish Messiah. And honestly, we are not going to throw away our sacred texts.

Basically what Baha'is say is that there is no Christian "Messiah" or Jewish "Messiah' or Baha'i "Messiah" --
there is just one Messiah and He came to fulfill the prophecies if all the major religions:

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

And honestly, nobody is going to throw away their sacred texts, but that is not the problem because sacred texts should never be thrown away. The problem I see is the way the sacred texts are interpreted, in a biased way; so the Messiah can only fulfill the prophecies in scriptures of one's own religion according to their personal understanding of what those prophecies mean.

 

[dybmh]

So if the Line continues through Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and brings all the Jews back to Israel.

How is that different?

The most obvious break in the line occurs with Jesus. If Jesus wasn't a messanger, then that discredits the other ( so-called ) messangers who are certain that he was one.

Deuteronomy 13 Explains the process, does it not?

Right. It is my firm judgement that Jesus in the gospels was promoting worship of an "other god", In addition to "speaking falsehood about the Lord God who brought us out of Egypt." Verses 3 and 6. Therefore, the existance of the false prophet are a test for us Jews. Verse 4.

 

[Skywalker]

The most obvious break in the line occurs with Jesus. If Jesus wasn't a messanger, then that discredits the other ( so-called ) messangers who are certain that he was one.

Right. It is my firm judgement that Jesus in the gospels was promoting worship of an "other god", In addition to "speaking falsehood about the Lord God who brought us out of Egypt." Verses 3 and 6. Therefore, the existance of the false prophet are a test for us Jews. Verse 4.

Psalm 110 refers to the Lord speaking to the Lord and telling him to sit at his right hand. The book of Acts mentions Jesus at the right hand of God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Basically what Baha'is say is that there is no Christian "Messiah" or Jewish "Messiah' or Baha'i "Messiah" --
there is just one Messiah and He came to fulfill the prophecies if all the major religions:

That's really pretty words, and I can understand why they would inspire you.

But the truth is,
Judaism understands the Messiah one way, using our texts.
Christianity understands the Messiah a different way, using its texts.
Islam understands the Messiah yet another way, using its texts.
And Baha'i's understanding is different than all of the above, using your texts.

IOW we do NOT have the same messiah. We just use the same word.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now to go even further, suppose that the only true religion is the first religion. A person of that religion worships the God of that religion. Then here comes a person claiming to be the next messenger and starts a new religion. Since he is a false prophet, basically his religion and his followers are worshipping a concept of what they believe is the actual God. But in reality, they may believe that they are worshipping a true God, the same one from the first religion, they're not actually worshipping that same God. Everything of and about in regards to their beliefs are genuine. None of them are pretending to believe the God, they're simply just have the wrong concept of the actual one true God. The God that they are worshipping, simply do not exist.

I understand what you are saying, but now turn that around.

Suppose that the first religion is not the only true religion. A person of that religion worships the God of that religion. Then here comes a person claiming to be the next messenger and starts a new religion. Since he is a true prophet, basically his religion and his followers are worshiping what they believe is the actual God and in reality, they are worshiping the one true God of all the religions, the same one from the first religion. Everything of and about in regards to their beliefs are genuine. They are not pretending to believe the God, they simply have the right concept of the actual one true God. The God that they are worshiping simply exists.

So Jews reject the rest because they believe the God(s) of those other religions are not the same one as theirs.

If course I know that, but does having such a believe make that belief true?
How much sense does it make that all the 7.8 billion people in the world with the exception of 14 million Jews are wrong about God? For me, it would make more sense to say that God does not exist.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The most obvious break in the line occurs with Jesus. If Jesus wasn't a messanger, then that discredits the other ( so-called ) messangers who are certain that he was one.

Right. It is my firm judgement that Jesus in the gospels was promoting worship of an "other god", In addition to "speaking falsehood about the Lord God who brought us out of Egypt." Verses 3 and 6. Therefore, the existance of the false prophet are a test for us Jews. Verse 4.

I see you are 100% free to see it as you have chosen to do so.

At the same time one could offer that is one of a couple of conclusions that can be seen in the same scriptures?

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am not reading what is in the Tanakh in the light you offered. I do not see the scriptures say to reject a True Prophet.

First can we establish how accurate the translation are of the parts of the Tanakh that are quoted in the Bible.

We should establish a translation agreed upon to pursue what is written.

Regards Tony

Doesn't matter. Jews don't have a messiah. Christians added one that warned against those who would come after him. And lo and behind, behind Jesus comes Paul, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah also claiming to be prophets, final prophets, change Jesus' role.
You can force fit puzzle pieces where they don't fit. Christians down have been trying ti do just this with Judaism.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Jesus coming from Galilee parallels Isaiah 53:2 mentioning a root out of dry ground. Galilee is a town that could have been described as dry ground. Jesus came from humble origins.

So? That entire area of the world in general has a lot of dry ground. much of the Earth as a whole is covered with it.

 

[Skywalker]

So? That entire area of the world in general has a lot of dry ground. much of the Earth as a whole is covered with it.

The origins of Jesus do not disqualify him from being the Messiah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Doesn't matter. Jews don't have a messiah. Christians added one that warned against those who would come after him. And lo and behind, behind Jesus comes Paul, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah also claiming to be prophets, final prophets, change Jesus' role.
You can force fit puzzle pieces where they don't fit. Christians down have been trying ti do just this with Judaism.

The other option is the puzzle has been completed, many are just yet to look at the full picture.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I see I can not be that clear, but that is what the Faith is all about I can not make an absolute statement on what has never been given any clarity in the writings.

In that case, Baha'is should never post the short list of Messengers of God, we should leave it open-ended.
On the other hand, we do have some criteria to go by, if we believe what Abdu'l-Baha wrote or said about Prophets is authoritative. Food for thought.

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

The Three Kinds of Prophets

 

[Skywalker]

In that case, Baha'is should never post the short list of Messengers of God, we should leave it open-ended.
On the other hand, we do have some criteria to go by, if we believe what Abdu'l-Baha wrote or said about Prophets is authoritative. Food for thought.

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

The Three Kinds of Prophets

If we need prophets of God to stay on the right path, why do we always stray?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In that case, Baha'is should never post the short list of Messengers of God, we should leave it open-ended.
On the other hand, we do have some criteria to go by, if we believe what Abdu'l-Baha wrote or said about Prophets is authoritative. Food for thought.

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

The Three Kinds of Prophets

There are indeed a lot of passages given on this subject, a truckload indeed. when we read them, it can give many thoughts as to how many Messengers have walked this earth, to which no record remains.

Who know what stories remain of them?

Regards Tony