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Featured How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Dec 30, 2020.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Baha'is do not use prophecies in an effort to demonstrate who Baha'u'llah was.
    Please show me where Baha'is bring up the subject of prophecies unsolicited.
    All we do is respond to posts when people ask what prophecies that Baha'u'llah fulfilled.
    People will always say there are problems with those prophecies, even when they have clearly been fulfilled and it has been demonstrated.
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It will never work to look at what was prophesied. It won't work to prove Baha'u'llah was who he claimed to be and it won't work for any other claimant either. The reason for that is obvious as I have told you dozens of times. Prophecies can have more than one interpretation thus they can have many meanings.

    Trying to predict the year when Christ would return the way you have been doing is an exercise in futility.

    Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
     
  3. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Right. "Clearly"? Never bring up prophecies? I'm not going to try and find places where Baha'is have done that, so let's just say from now on, for sure, Baha'is don't bring up alleged prophecies that they can't prove. And as always Christians have done the same thing. Like there are no problems with Isaiah 7:14? That one verse is clearly talking about Jesus? But the rest of the verses aren't? Baha'is and the "Three Woes" have all sorts of problems. But, because it says that the second Woe is over and the third one is coming soon, that one verse is good enough for Baha'is to say that the second Woe is The Bab and the third Woe is Baha'u'llah because he is coming soon. Read the Three Woes. They are bad things coming. The Christ doesn't return until later after more bad things happen. And any prophecy that suggests that the Messiah or the Christ will change things when he comes has not "clearly" been fulfilled. In fact it clearly hasn't. So Baha'is talk around those and give reasons why those don't mean things will be made better right away but sometime later. And like I always ask... The Christ returns and the trials and tribulations continue? Where is that prophesied? Disasters, plagues, wars? It sure seems like we are still in the end times and heading for the worst of the tribulations.

    But, while I've got you here. I was wondering... Let's say you were a Jew... What is it that would convince you that Jesus is the Messiah and become a Christian? Then after that, give the reasons why you, a Jew, would accept Muhammad and become Muslim? Then, the easy one for you, what is it that would convince you that The Bab and Baha'u'llah are the Messiahs and cause you to become a Baha'i?
     
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  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So, again, why start the 2300 day/year prophecy in 457BC? I'm sure you've read the context, so tell me how you kick everything back to they year when the decree to rebuild Jerusalem happened?
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    A Jew would have to recognize Jesus as the only true Messenger of God in order to become a Christian.
    A Jew would have to recognize Muhammad as the latest a Messenger of God in order to become a Muslim.
    A Jew would have to recognize Baha'u'llah as the latest a Messenger of God in order to become a Baha'i.

    How woukld a Jew do that? They would have to read the New Testament/Qur'an/Writings of Baha'u'llah, but first they would have to believe it is possible that the Torah is not the ONLY Word of God, and that is where the roadblock is. Unless Jewish people are willing to consider an interpretation of the Torah other than their own, they will never believe anything other than what they believe. It is ALL about that interpretation -- ALL.

    The same concept applies to Christians considering any religion besides Christianity - It is ALL about that interpretation of the Bible -- ALL.
     
    #485 Trailblazer, Jan 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, to be honest, I have never read that chapter about Daniel about the 2300 years with any serious intent, so I am the wrong Baha'i to ask.
     
  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Ok. I'll bite. What does Bahaullah say about Torah? What is the alternate interpretation that I should consider?
     
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  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    So far, this is all I can find.

    "
    ..the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).
    (From a previously untranslated Tablet)
    From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá
    Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
    (From a previously untranslated Tablet)
    Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.
    (From a previously untranslated Tablet)"

    The Bible

    Not much to "consider" @Trailblazer ...
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I do not know what Baha'u'llah said but as Baha'u'llah's appointed interpreter and Centre of His Covenant, this is what Abdu'l-Baha said.

    From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

    Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
    (From a previously untranslated Tablet)

    Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.
    (From a previously untranslated Tablet)

    The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

    There is no 'alternate interpretation' that I am aware of. What I meant by what I said to CG Didymus is that Jews would have to be willing to interpret the Torah 'differently' than they presently do. For one thing, they would have to be willing to consider the possibility that many of the prophecies for the coming of the Messiah do not mean what they believe they mean, thus the Messiah will not be who they believe he will be and he will not do exactly what they believe he will do.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Those are the same statements I found, but you beat me to the punch.
    I just explained what I think Jews would have to "consider"
     
  11. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Ok. What makes the Baha'i interpretation better?
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Baha'u'llah actually fulfilled the prophecies for the Messiah, whereas Jews only have a 'conception' of what the Messiah will be like and what he will do and when and how he will do it.

    A Bird in the Hand is Worth Two in the Bush, especially if that Bird is indeed the Messiah. ;)
     
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    He fulfilled the prophecies of the messiah of Baha'i texts, but not the messiah described in the Tanakh. We've discussed this before.
     
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  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    This doesn't sound better, it just sounds different.

    A bird in the hand... means it's better to appreciate what you have instead of waiting for something better? If Bahaullah is the bird in the hand, and the Jewish messiah is 2 birds in the bush, doesn't that mean that the version of the Jewish messiah is more desirable?
     
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  15. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Such reasoning has been a source of prejudice from Christians to the Jews for many centuries that continues still today. They use it as justification for the belief the Jews killed Christ. As well as the arrogance of Christians to proclaim to Jews they are doing their own religion wrong, that Christians have completed their religion.
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    There is no Messiah described in the Baha'i texts.
    Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies for the Messiah as written in the Bible and Tanakh.
    In other words, what Baha'u'llah actually did matches up with what the Tanakh says the Messiah will do.

    There can no honest discussion unless there are common understandings. As you once told a Christian on this forum, all written material needs to be read and we interpret it as we read it. When we interpret a text we assign a meaning to it. That is as true for the Tanakh as it is for the Bible.

    So this is what happens:
    You read and interpret the Tanakh prophecies that you believe refer to the Messiah, and assign meanings to them.
    I read and interpret the Tanakh prophecies that I believe refer to the Messiah, and I assign meanings to them.

    The meanings we assign differ so you have different 'expectations' of what the Messiah will do, how he will do it and when he will do it. I could easily demonstrate what I mean if I had some prophecies to interpret.

    But it is even more complicated than that because many of the prophecies I believe refer to the Messiah you believe refer to Israel. That is how differently we interpret the text, and there is no reason why your interpretation is any more valid than mine. To say that they are 'your scriptures' so you have a better understanding of what they mean is begging the question, because if Baha'u'llah was the Messiah and He unsealed the Book as per Daniel 12, only Baha'is can fully understand what these scriptures mean.

    Daniel – Chapter 12

    4 And you, Daniel, close up the words and seal the book until the time of the end; many will run to and fro, and the knowledge will increase.

    5 And I, Daniel, saw, and behold two others were standing, one on this side of the river bank, and one on that side of the riverbank.
    6 And he said to the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be until the secret end?"


    8 And I heard, but I did not understand, and I said, "My lord, what is the end of these?"

    9 And he said, "Go, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.

    11 And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

    12 Fortunate is he who waits and reaches days of one thousand, three hundred, and thirty-five.
    13 And you, go to the end, and you will rest and rise to your lot at the end of the days."

    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16495/jewish/Chapter-12.htm#lt=primary
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Definition of a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

    —used to say that it is better to hold onto something one has than to risk losing it by trying to get something better.

    A Bird In The Hand Is Worth Two In The Bush | Definition of A ...


    So what I was trying to say is that Baha'u'llah is the bird in the hand since He has already come, whereas a Jewish Messiah is like the two birds in the bush since you have no actual Messiah; you only have a conception of a Messiah and an expectation of a Messiah according to your understanding of your scriptures.

    What you risk losing by waiting for the Jewish Messiah is never knowing who the real Messiah was, what he did and what he taught. You see, Baha'is do not believe there is a Jewish Messiah, we believe that there is just a Messiah who came to all of humanity, including the Jews. Since he was the Promised One of all the religions, he fulfilled the prophecies of all the major religions.

    Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

    Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage
     
    #497 Trailblazer, Jan 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
  18. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Reviewing the information you've provided, the case for Bahaullah as the Messiah depends on a lot more than what's in Torah.

    Baha'i are asking Jewish people to accept the prophecies of all the major religions. That's a very difficult task. You'd need to show that each of these prophecies are credible.

    Therefore, what you said below is exaggerated.

    The problem is not a that Jewish people are unwilling to consider an interpretation of Torah other than their own. The problem is, that each time a prophecy is added from a different religion it makes the claim weaker, not stronger.
     
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  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It certainly does depend upon a lot more than that.

    Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
    I do not know what you mean by 'credible' but Baha'is are not asking Jewish people to 'accept' the prophecies of all the major religions. The only reason I posted those websites is to show that all major religions have prophecies about a Messiah, a Promised One who will come and fulfill their prophecies.

    It makes no logical sense that there will be a different Messiah for each religion, so that means that the one Messiah would have to fulfill the prophecies of all the religions; and that means he would not be unique to only one religion and fulfill only their prophecies.

    If you look at the prophecies of all the religions win an unbiased fashion you will discover that they are all saying essentially the same thing as far as what the Messiah will do. Only the details differ but details can be interpreted in many ways whereas the general picture of the Messiah remains the same.

    Jews cannot have it both ways. If they claim that the Torah is the only valid scripture and only the Torah prophecies are valid, what they are saying is that all other religions are false. This is a logical point. (Of course the same applies to any religion that claims exclusivity, particularly Christianity, who claims that Jesus is the only true Messiah.)

    So then the next questions that arise are as follows: How do Jews know that their religion is the 'only true one?' Does it say that in the Torah? Does it say that the Torah is the only valid scripture that God would ever reveal? Perhaps Jews can make the Torah say that by interpreting certain verses they 'believe' mean that, but I would have a different interpretation of the same verses, so who is to say their interpretation is right and mine is wrong?
    I agree with you on that because what you said is logical. It would make the claim weaker.

    Furthermore, I do not expect Jews to consider prophecies from other religions that they do not even believe in. All I am suggesting is that you look at other possible interpretations of the prophecies in your scriptures, interpretations other than the interpretations that are commonly accepted by Jewish people, interpretations which have led to beliefs regarding exactly what the Messiah will be like, what he will do and how he will do it. in other words, Jews believe that the Messiah must do what they believe he will do, according to their understanding of their prophecies, and what I am saying is that their understanding might not be totally correct; so the Messiah might do some of what they believe he will do, but not all of it.
     
  20. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Ya could have fooled me. He will come to you from Assyria... He is the promised Comforter. He is the third "Woe" etc. etc.

    Hmmm? People will say there are problems even though they have been "clearly" fulfilled? But no one, even Baha'is, can't prove them?

    And you don't state things as "facts"? Your "facts" are great for other Baha'is and people that really don't take the Bible all that seriously or literally... which is probably a lot of us. But, like I've said before, I'm no Bible scholar and I find problems with the Baha'i interpretations all over the place. But it's understandable Baha'is are happy with their interpretations and don't take other interpretations as being correct. Only problem, to say that no one can prove any prophecy's interpretation is correct is impossible, doesn't help. It makes them virtually useless.
     
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