How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is go against things that are clearly stated in the NT.

Christians who believe that Jesus is going to return and build a kingdom on earth go against things that are clearly stated in the NT.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

But Baha'is don't believe those things, like Satan being real and the resurrection etc., so they go against what is said and try to make anything they don't like as being metaphorical. Really? Jesus was tempted by a metaphorical evil spirit being, which was really only his lower nature? And really, verse after verse about Jesus appearing to his disciples, but that was only metaphorical? Baha'is don't only reject the Christian interpretations of the NT and Bible, they reject what the Bible presents as being true, historical events. And I'd agree. But I don't go around at the same time saying how great and true the Bible is.

The Bible does not present Satan as being real nor does it present anything as being true, historical events....
That is just what most Christians believe.

As I always say, it all boils down to interpretation. The Bible does not speak. People read it and and interpret it and assign meanings to it. Those meanings differ because there are many possible meanings that can be assigned.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

 

[Skywalker]

I do not know what you mean.

John the Baptist had a certain connection to Jesus. He was the forerunner of Jesus. Malachi 3:1 says that Christ will come to the temple. Jesus, who will be preceded by a messenger, will suddenly come to the temple.

 

[Skywalker]

Bahai's do not think of salvation in terms of salvation from the stain of "original sin" as Christians believe.
Baha’is believe that all the great religions bestow salvation. Note what it says about the Buddhist perspective.

Salvation in the Baha'i Faith

According to Bahá'u'lláh, pride or self-centeredness is one of the greatest hindrances to spiritual progress. Pride represents an exaggerated sense of one's own importance in the universe and leads to an attitude of superiority over others.

The prideful person feels in absolute control of his life and the circumstances surrounding it and he seeks power and dominance over others because such power helps him maintain this illusion of superiority. Pride is such a hindrance to spiritual growth because it impels the prideful individual on an endless quest to fulfill the expectations of his vainly-conceived and illusory self-concept.

In the Bahá'í notion of spiritual progress, whatever is conducive to spiritual progress is good, and whatever tends to hinder spiritual progress is bad. This doctrine reminds one of the Buddhist perspective. From the Bahá'í viewpoint, learning "right" from "wrong" means attaining a degree of self-knowledge that permits us to know when something is helpful to our spiritual growth and when it is not. And this knowledge can only be obtained through the teachings of the Manifestations (the prophets of the great religions).

Bahá'u'lláh repeatedly stressed that only revealed religion can save us from our imperfections. It is because God has sent his Manifestations to show us the path to spiritual development and to touch our hearts with the spirit of God's love that we are able to realize our true potential and make the effort to be united with God. This is the "salvation" that religion brings.

Bahai's do not think of salvation in terms of salvation from the stain of "original sin," nor does it protect us from some external evil force or devil. Rather, it delivers people from the captivity to their own lower nature, a captivity that breeds private despair and threatens social destruction. Salvation means drawing nearer to God and progressing on the path to a deep and satisfying happiness.

Salvation in the Baha'i Faith

One plus one equals two. There can only be one way to God. Why would Jesus have died for our sins if there are multiple ways to come before God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jeremiah 23:5-6 refers to the Messiah as a descendant of David. That verse also describes the Messiah as God, because it says "this is the name by which he will be called: The Lord our Righteousness." Isaiah 9:6-7 says that the Messiah will rule from the throne of David. Daniel 9:25-26 says that the Messiah will die in A.D. 33. The Messiah will die 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (that works out to A.D. 33). The city and the temple will then be destroyed. (This occurred in 70.)

As I told you before, I believe Jesus was a Messiah, but not the Messiah of the end times.
Baha'u'llah was the Lord our Righteousness.
Baha'u'llah was a descendant of David.
Baha'u'llah ruled from the throne of David.

 

[Trailblazer]

John the Baptist had a certain connection to Jesus. He was the forerunner of Jesus. Malachi 3:1 says that Christ will come to the temple. Jesus, who will be preceded by a messenger, will suddenly come to the temple.

Likewise, the Bab was the forerunner to Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

There can only be one way to God.
Why would Jesus have died for our sins if there are multiple ways to come before God?

Jesus dying for our sins is not related to the ways to God.
There is no logical reason why there cannot be more than one way to God.

 

[Skywalker]

A sure guide to spiritual truth, not a sure guide to who was the Messiah.
The Bible is not a sure guide to who was the Messiah for the obvious logical reason that the prophecies can and are interpreted differently by different people...

So if you say the prophecies were not fulfilled that is just your personal opinion based upon your interpretation of the verses. It does not prove anything.

The Suffering Servant is elected by the Lord, annointed by the Spirit, and promised success in his endeavor. Justice is a prime concern of his ministry. His ministry has an international scope. God predestined him to his calling. He is a gifted teacher. He experiences discouragement in his ministry. His ministry extends to the Gentiles. The Servant encourages strong opposition and resistance to his teaching, even of a physically violent nature. He is determined to finish what God called him to do. The Servant has humble origins with little outward prospects for success. He experiences suffering and affliction. The Servant vicarious and substitutionary suffering on behalf of his people. He is put to death after being condemned. Incredibly, he comes back to life and is exalted above all rulers.

 

[Skywalker]

Christians who believe that Jesus is going to return and build a kingdom on earth go against things that are clearly stated in the NT.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The Bible does not present Satan as being real nor does it present anything as being true, historical events....
That is just what most Christians believe.

As I always say, it all boils down to interpretation. The Bible does not speak. People read it and and interpret it and assign meanings to it. Those meanings differ because there are many possible meanings that can be assigned.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

The Old Testament talks about Jesus returning. Is Zechariah 14:4 a prophecy about the second coming of Christ? | GotQuestions.org

Is Zechariah 14:4 a prophecy about the second coming of Christ?
Question: "Is Zechariah 14:4 a prophecy about the second coming of Christ?"

Answer: Zechariah 14:4 predicts, “On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the Mount moving north and half moving south.” “That day” is a reference to the Day of the Lord, and the One who stands on the mountain is the Lord Himself. So, yes, this passage predicts the second coming of Christ.

The opening of Zechariah 14 speaks of a future day when Jerusalem will be plundered by its enemies. Verse 2 prophesies that all nations will gather against Jerusalem and capture and ransack the city. Half of the citizens of Jerusalem will flee the devastation, but the other half will remain. This will be one half of the one third of the Jewish population still alive in Jerusalem after the Tribulation (13:8). Then, Zechariah says, the Lord Himself will go forth and engage these opponents in battle (14:3). Verse 4 speaks of the Messiah standing on the Mount of Olives, a hill near Jerusalem on the east. The mountain will split, creating an enormous valley. Since none of this has taken place yet, the prophecy points to a future time.

A parallel passage tells of the Battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19:11-21). Revelation 16:18-21 predicts horrible events at the end of the Tribulation when the seventh bowl is poured out:

“Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. . . . Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.”

The earthquake in Revelation could very well speak of the event described in Zechariah when the Mount of Olives splits in two. Jesus the Messiah will cause an earthquake at His second coming that will serve as part of the destruction of God’s enemies.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Suffering Servant is elected by the Lord, annointed by the Spirit, and promised success in his endeavor. Justice is a prime concern of his ministry. His ministry has an international scope. God predestined him to his calling. He is a gifted teacher. He experiences discouragement in his ministry. His ministry extends to the Gentiles. The Servant is determined to finish what God called him to do. The Servant experiences suffering and affliction.

Baha'u'llah did all of the above.

Jesus had nothing to finish, because He finished the work God gave Him to do.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

 

[Skywalker]

As I told you before, I believe Jesus was a Messiah, but not the Messiah of the end times.
Baha'u'llah was the Lord our Righteousness.
Baha'u'llah was a descendant of David.
Baha'u'llah ruled from the throne of David.

Bahaullah isn't on the throne of David now. What evidence was there that he God? Nobody could speak and forgive like Jesus did. The sublimity and perfection of Jesus Christ was beyond human invention. Zechariah 14:4 describes Jesus as the Messiah of the end times.

 

[Skywalker]

Likewise, the Bab was the forerunner to Baha'u'llah.

Neither the Bab or Bahulllah were forerunners of Jesus.

 

[Skywalker]

Jesus dying for our sins is not related to the ways to God.
There is no logical reason why there cannot be more than one way to God.

Jesus didn't just die for our sins so that we could be forgiven but also that we could come before God with Jesus as our mediator and advocate.

 

[Skywalker]

Baha'u'llah did all of the above.

Jesus had nothing to finish, because He finished the work God gave Him to do.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

When Jesus was on the cross he said it is finished.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Old Testament talks about Jesus returning. Is Zechariah 14:4 a prophecy about the second coming of Christ? | GotQuestions.org

Question: "Is Zechariah 14:4 a prophecy about the second coming of Christ?"

Answer: Zechariah 14:4 predicts, “On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the Mount moving north and half moving south.” “That day” is a reference to the Day of the Lord, and the One who stands on the mountain is the Lord Himself. So, yes, this passage predicts the second coming of Christ.

The second coming of Christ is not the same as the second coming of Jesus.
Yes, this passage predicts the second coming of the Christ Spirit, who came in another person..
There will be no second coming of the same man Jesus.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Skywalker]

Question: "Is Zechariah 14:4 a prophecy about the second coming of Christ?"

Answer: Zechariah 14:4 predicts, “On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the Mount moving north and half moving south.” “That day” is a reference to the Day of the Lord, and the One who stands on the mountain is the Lord Himself. So, yes, this passage predicts the second coming of Christ.

The second coming of Christ is not the same as the second coming of Jesus.
There will be no second coming of Jesus.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.[/QUOTE]

Jesus was referring to his death and ressurection and finishing the work of redemption. The context of the verses was about Jesus having the role of the Savior not about whether or not Jesus would return.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahaullah isn't on the throne of David now. What evidence was there that he God? Nobody could speak and forgive like Jesus did. The sublimity and perfection of Jesus Christ was beyond human invention. Zechariah 14:4 describes Jesus as the Messiah of the end times.

Jesus was the Messiah, but not the ONLY Messiah, and not the Messiah of the end times.
Jesus clearly said His work was finished on earth and he was no more in the world.

You are correct in saying that nobody could speak and forgive like Jesus did. The sublimity and perfection of Jesus Christ was beyond human invention, but that does not mean He was the ONLY one who ever spoke for God.

The throne of David is an allegory, not a real throne. Jesus is sitting on that throne in heaven.

Luke 1:32 King James Version (KJV)

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting. He exalted those Jews who recognized Him. They were men and women of humble birth, but contact with Him made them great and gave them everlasting dignity. The animals who were to live with one another signified the different sects and races, who, once having been at war, were now to dwell in love and charity, drinking together the water of life from Christ the Eternal Spring.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 56

Now, as the return of Christ, Baha’u’llah is sitting on the throne of David and ruling over earth from heaven.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

 

[Trailblazer]

Neither the Bab or Bahulllah were forerunners of Jesus.

No, they came after Jesus, in 1844 and 1852 AD.

 

[Skywalker]

Jesus was the Messiah, but not the ONLY Messiah, and not the Messiah of the end times.
Jesus clearly said His work was finished on earth and he was no more in the world.

You are correct in saying that nobody could speak and forgive like Jesus did. The sublimity and perfection of Jesus Christ was beyond human invention, but that does not mean He was the ONLY one who ever spoke for God.

The throne of David is an allegory, not a real throne. Jesus is sitting on that throne in heaven.

Luke 1:32 King James Version (KJV)

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting. He exalted those Jews who recognized Him. They were men and women of humble birth, but contact with Him made them great and gave them everlasting dignity. The animals who were to live with one another signified the different sects and races, who, once having been at war, were now to dwell in love and charity, drinking together the water of life from Christ the Eternal Spring.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 56

Now, as the return of Christ, Baha’u’llah is sitting on the throne of David and ruling over earth from heaven.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

Jesus meant his work of redemption was finished. Why would God come down in two bodies? The Mount of Olives mentioned in Zechariah 14:4 is not in heaven.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus didn't just die for our sins so that we could be forgiven but also that we could come before God with Jesus as our mediator and advocate.

Jesus was the mediator and advocate for the biblical dispensation, but He is not the mediator and advocate for the present age.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus meant his work of redemption was finished. Why would God come down in two bodies? The Mount of Olives mentioned in Zechariah 14:4 is not in heaven.

Jesus said his work was finished here and he was no more in the world.
God did not come down in any bodies, God manifested Himself in bodies, and there were more than two.