How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[Trailblazer]

Strange question...

Because this is reality for All religions..

Not ALL religions.

Baha'is do not reject any of the major religions that were revealed by God.

 

[Trailblazer]

How is this possible?

It is possible because God gave everyone free will.

It is probable because hardly anyone will ever relinquish what they already believe and embrace another religion that came after their religion of choice.

It does not matter how much evidence that the newer religions have, because the older religions will use their scriptures to try to prove only they are right and all the other religions are wrong. The problem is that all they have is their personal interpretations of those scriptures, and those scriptures can be used to try to prove anything since they have so may possible meanings.

This is the entire ball of wax, the whole shebang.... There really is nothing else.

It does not matter one iota what stands to reason. It is all about emotion and entrenched beliefs.

As Bird123 likes to say:
That's what I see. It's very clear!

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok. Do baha'i reject Apollo?

Yes we do, because we only accept the real Messengers of God.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It can be seen that it is God calling the Jews to fulfill their destiny! The Covenant is then seen to be fulfilled.

Though that is the quandary of Faith.

Regards Tony

That can be seen as pushy arrogance. Why should the Jews abandon their and beliefs for the beliefs of those who aren't Jewish who claim to know the religion better?

 

[Flankerl]

It can be seen that it is God calling the Jews to fulfill their destiny! The Covenant is then seen to be fulfilled.

Though that is the quandary of Faith.

Regards Tony

Or perhaps Hashem wants me to form a holy army with which I shall give you and others like you to him as my sacrifice.


Oh wait that's not our way. Aren't you lucky.

 

[night912]

So you are saying the perception is that the former religion holds to their view of God, but does not except the refreshed view given by a later Messenger.

The simple answer, yes. The not so simple answer, it's not merely the perception of the former religion. Keep in mind that if someone made a golden idol and every day that person worships and prays to his God and is seen physically doing those actions towards the golden idol. That doesn't necessarily mean that the God he is worshipping is the actual golden idol that he made. The idol is just a physical representation of his God.

Now to go even further, suppose that the only true religion is the first religion. A person of that religion worships the God of that religion. Then here comes a person claiming to be the next messenger and starts a new religion. Since he is a false prophet, basically his religion and his followers are worshipping a concept of what they believe is the actual God. But in reality, they may believe that they are worshipping a true God, the same one from the first religion, they're not actually worshipping that same God. Everything of and about in regards to their beliefs are genuine. None of them are pretending to believe the God, they're simply just have the wrong concept of the actual one true God. The God that they are worshipping, simply do not exist.

So Jews reject the rest because they believe the God(s) of those other religions are not the same one as theirs.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How is this possible?

Israel is the centre of the Faith in One God.

Stands to reason God chose the Centre point of all God given Faiths. Stands to reason they would not last, if they are not of God.

Israel has millions of pilgrims each year going to give praise to One God.

Jews and Christians, inclusive of people from many other previous faiths and Muslims also inclusive of people from many other previous faiths and Baha'is inclusive of people from many other previous faiths, one and all go to pray to One God.

Is it Biblical that all Faiths will become One in God?

How do all Faiths with One God, not see the One God?

RegardsTony

Hi Tony.

I'm sure you will recognize my answers, since we've discussed this before.

Basically, we rely on our sacred texts as the foundation for our lives and religious outlooks. Specifically, our ideas of the Messiah are based on the very few prophecies in the Tanakh. Jesus, Muhammad, and the Bahai'ulla did not fulfill those prophecies.

What Christianity does is invent a whole lot of additional prophecies by taking a lot of verses out of context. They also misquote and mistranslate the the Tanakh. And they even make up prophecies that don't exist in the Tanakh. Then after doing all this, they say that Jesus fulfilled all these not-so-real prophecies. So what happens with the actual messianic prophecies? Well, Jesus didn't fulfill them. So Christianity decides that Jesus will return a second time and fulfill the actual messianic prophecies at that time. It doesn't work -- if a person can say, "Hey I'm the messiah, I'll justfulfill the prophecies next time around," well then any of us could make a claim to be the messiah.

I'm less familiar with Baha'i, but it does largely the same thing -- makes up new scriptures that change the nature of what the Jewish Messiah is described to be in the Jewish texts. Once you redefine what the messiah is, and make up new prophecies for him, then you can do as you please.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the Christian "Messiah" and the Baha'i "Messiah" is nothing like the Jewish Messiah. And honestly, we are not going to throw away our sacred texts.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes we do, because we only accept the real Messengers of God.

I see I can not be that clear, but that is what the Faith is all about I can not make an absolute statement on what has never been given any clarity in the writings.

On the other hand, we have been asked to look for the good in all things.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That can be seen as pushy arrogance. Why should the Jews abandon their and beliefs for the beliefs of those who aren't Jewish who claim to know the religion better?

Why are people under the opinion that one abandons a Faith, if one becomes accepting of the fulfillment of that Faith?

Go back through time, did not all those that reject any Message accuse the Messenger of abandoning the previous Faith? Did not the Jews have to be at one time, be of a people that had to accept a New Faith and all that comes with that acceptance?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Or perhaps Hashem wants me to form a holy army with which I shall give you and others like you to him as my sacrifice.


Oh wait that's not our way. Aren't you lucky.

That is indeed now the law as holy war has now been struck from the book, for all time, are we not all lucky?

Now we just need people to practice the Law.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi Tony.

I'm sure you will recognize my answers, since we've discussed this before.

Basically, we rely on our sacred texts as the foundation for our lives and religious outlooks. Specifically, our ideas of the Messiah are based on the very few prophecies in the Tanakh. Jesus, Muhammad, and the Bahai'ulla did not fulfill those prophecies.

What Christianity does is invent a whole lot of additional prophecies by taking a lot of verses out of context. They also misquote and mistranslate the the Tanakh. And they even make up prophecies that don't exist in the Tanakh. Then after doing all this, they say that Jesus fulfilled all these not-so-real prophecies. So what happens with the actual messianic prophecies? Well, Jesus didn't fulfill them. So Christianity decides that Jesus will return a second time and fulfill the actual messianic prophecies at that time. It doesn't work -- if a person can say, "Hey I'm the messiah, I'll justfulfill the prophecies next time around," well then any of us could make a claim to be the messiah.

I'm less familiar with Baha'i, but it does largely the same thing -- makes up new scriptures that change the nature of what the Jewish Messiah is described to be in the Jewish texts. Once you redefine what the messiah is, and make up new prophecies for him, then you can do as you please.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the Christian "Messiah" and the Baha'i "Messiah" is nothing like the Jewish Messiah. And honestly, we are not going to throw away our sacred texts.

Thank you for an honest friendly answer, you are a credit to your Faith.

Personally I see the Jews will never throw away their scriptures. I do see that they will see them in a different lights as the future unfolds.

I also see God sends the Messiah as God has promised and not how that we see that promise should unfold. But that is the quandary we all face, that is for sure.

Always happy to give an alternate vision into biblical prophecy. The fact that the Holy land again is a Jewish Nation, must indicate some Prophecy has been fulfilled!

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The simple answer, yes. The not so simple answer, it's not merely the perception of the former religion. Keep in mind that if someone made a golden idol and every day that person worships and prays to his God and is seen physically doing those actions towards the golden idol. That doesn't necessarily mean that the God he is worshipping is the actual golden idol that he made. The idol is just a physical representation of his God.

Now to go even further, suppose that the only true religion is the first religion. A person of that religion worships the God of that religion. Then here comes a person claiming to be the next messenger and starts a new religion. Since he is a false prophet, basically his religion and his followers are worshipping a concept of what they believe is the actual God. But in reality, they may believe that they are worshipping a true God, the same one from the first religion, they're not actually worshipping that same God. Everything of and about in regards to their beliefs are genuine. None of them are pretending to believe the God, they're simply just have the wrong concept of the actual one true God. The God that they are worshipping, simply do not exist.

So Jews reject the rest because they believe the God(s) of those other religions are not the same one as theirs.

That is indeed the Quandary. The OP is about just that.

When is a Messenger, not a Messenger and what do the scriptures actually say to look out for? What are all the prophecies of the Jewish Scriptures and what do they say without added thoughts?

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why are people under the opinion that one abandons a Faith, if one becomes accepting of the fulfillment of that Faith?

Because it's a different religion. It's not the same religion. Amd it's arrogance to proclaim to Jews your new faith is the complete version of theirs. It's not. It's a different religion entirely.

 

[Trailblazer]

All people are free to quote why that would consider that is a reality, should be a stack of scriptures available for them to quote where a Messenger tells followers to reject another Messenger.

There are more than a stack of scriptures in the Bible that say we should beware of false prophets:

What Does the Bible Say About False Prophets?

But it would be interesting to go through that stack and see if there are any verses that say:

a) all Prophets are false, or
b) there can be no more true Prophets (Messengers) after the ones in the Bible.

John 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Of course, the way Jews wiggle out of those verses is by saying that the New Testament is not the Word of God, that only the Torah is the Word of God and thus Jesus was a false prophet.

I do not know what Muhammad said, but Baha'u'llah said to the Christians that if they had believed in Jesus they would have believed in Him.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

Of course, the way Christians wiggle out of those verses is by saying that the Writings of Baha'u'llah is not the Word of God, that only the Bible is the Word of God and thus Baha'u'llah was a false prophet.

Does anyone see how history repeats itself?

How logical is it to believe that Moses was the only true Prophet?
How logical is it to believe that Jesus is the Only Way?
At least Muslims believe that Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were all true Prophets.

So, as I see it, a question that remains is whether the Bab and Baha'u'llah were also true Prophets, in which case Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were also true Prophets.

 

[Flankerl]

Of course, the way Jews wiggle out of those verses

Pure Arrogance.

Thanks for not holding back.
Pretty much burning all the capital Baha'i had from our side but who cares really.

Whenever you lot will come up in the future I'll tell my fellow Jews that you aren't any different from the Christians and Muslims and that their positive feelings are entirely misplaced.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because it's a different religion. It's not the same religion. Amd it's arrogance to proclaim to Jews your new faith is the complete version of theirs. It's not. It's a different religion entirely.

That's right, it is a different religion entirely.
TB is not one for mincing words, I like to cut to the chase.

So the bottom line is as I have been saying on various forums for eight years, that there are only two logical possibilities: Baha'u'llah was either (a) a false prophet or (b) a true Prophet (Messenger of God).
If (b) then (c) His Revelation abrogated all the Dispensations that preceded it because that is what He wrote.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

However, it was only the former Dispensations that have been abrogated. The religions themselves have not been abrogated because a religion from God can never be abrogated.

Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Because it's a different religion. It's not the same religion. Amd it's arrogance to proclaim to Jews your new faith is the complete version of theirs. It's not. It's a different religion entirely.

One could ask God why that is so, why shoot the Messengers? Why does the Bible show God sends Messengers and Prophets in succession?

So what part is different? Are you talking about God's Laws?

If you are, is there precedence in the Bible showing this has happened in the past, that God changes Laws?

Does God say that Covenant will end?

Regards Tony

 

[Skywalker]

How is this possible?

Israel is the centre of the Faith in One God.

Stands to reason God chose the Centre point of all God given Faiths. Stands to reason they would not last, if they are not of God.

Israel has millions of pilgrims each year going to give praise to One God.

Jews and Christians, inclusive of people from many other previous faiths and Muslims also inclusive of people from many other previous faiths and Baha'is inclusive of people from many other previous faiths, one and all go to pray to One God.

Is it Biblical that all Faiths will become One in God?

How do all Faiths with One God, not see the One God?

RegardsTony

Mohammad believed that the Messiah only came for the Jews. Christians and Jews believe that the Messiah will bring peace to the whole world.

 

[Trailblazer]

Pure Arrogance.

Thanks for not holding back.
Pretty much burning all the capital Baha'i had from our side but who cares really.

Trailblazer said:
John 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Of course, the way Jews wiggle out of those verses is by saying that the New Testament is not the Word of God, that only the Torah is the Word of God and thus Jesus was a false prophet.​

Please explain why what I said was "pure arrogance" on my part. Don't hold back.

Don't Jews believe that only the Torah is the Word of God and thus Jesus was a false prophet? Yes or no.

Is it true that Jews believe they have the only true religion and the only true scriptures? Yes or no.

If yes, then you are saying that everyone in the world who is not Jewish, seven billion seven hundred eighty-six million people,
are following a false religion and a false God.

I will allow you to draw your own conclusions from that.

 

[dybmh]

Did not the Jews have to be at one time, be of a people that had to accept a New Faith and all that comes with that acceptance?

According to the story, the Jewish people retained their identity and Jewish faith from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, through to the giving of the Torah even while in exhile in Egypt. So no, we didn't accept a new faith.