How can Muslims reconcile their directives?

[LuisDantas]

It seems to me that Muslims live under a huge set of expectations, many of which are very much at odds with each other, at least when confronted with the real world.

In this thread I want to present one example.

Questioning whether other people who claim to be adherents of Islaam should be considered Muslims seems to be a very rude attitude, perhaps even when those people are hypotheticals with no clear correspondence to real world people.

Yet there is also the insistence that Muslims should be united and never take arms against each other. Despite having done so time and again, century after century, to the point that it should be expected.

How do Muslims deal with those situations, which to me at least appear to be unreasonable, contradictory expectations? Are there Sunni Muslims that doubt the existence of the Battle of Karbala, for instance? Is it perhaps perceived as bad manners to mention that battle to Sunnis? What are the current views of the Iraq/Iran war of the 1980s? Is it perhaps proposed in any seriousness that one or the other side did not have any significant number of Muslims?

 

[Augustus]

How do Muslims deal with those situations, which to me at least appear to be unreasonable, contradictory expectations?

Pretty easily I guess given Islamic history from the 8th C onwards. Numerous heroes from Islamic history, Saladin for example, fought other Muslims without damaging their legacy.

 

[YmirGF]

Pretty easily I guess given Islamic history from the 8th C onwards. Numerous heroes from Islamic history, Saladin for example, fought other Muslims without damaging their legacy.

My guess is that they used a variation of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, pretending that no true Muslim would act against them, so they could neatly dispatch anyone who stood in their path. Nothing simpler, really.

 

[LuisDantas]

Then how come I keep hearing claims that ISIS are obviously not Muslims?

 

[Cooky]

Just a thought, but has anyone considered that whatever is perceived as a better method for spreading Islam, becomes the real Islam?

Looking at the region itself, we often see countries such as Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and all the rest looking to "expand their influence"... I hear it all the time.

...With the goal of "expanding your influence" I'm curious as to where this idea is rooted. From where does it come..? And this ideal even falls into sub-groups.

Guys, to understand Islam, we're going to have to look beyond the faith, and into the governing aspects, etc. We're going to have to dissect the entire religion, and study it with our own microscopes... It's going to need to be examined from the outside.

 

[LuisDantas]

I hear you, @Landon Caeli , but one should also consider that apparently for many people "real Islaam" is by definition perfect and above criticism.

Any imperfections would therefore be automatically presumed to be caused by human failure in the implementation of a presumably divine and perfect goal.

It is also often difficult to reach firm conclusions about Islaam, in no small measure because Muslims are not always very cooperative. Case in point, the concept of Taqiya.

Taqiya - Wikipedia

As for calling Islaam a religion, I would advise you to consider whether that is warranted. I have no idea of what you expect of a religion, but a couple of years ago I concluded that Islaam falls way short of my own expectations. It is just too busy with other concerns to even make a serious attempt at attaining such a status.

 

[Cooky]

I hear you, @Landon Caeli , but one should also consider that apparently for many people "real Islaam" is by definition perfect and above criticism.

Any imperfections would therefore be automatically presumed to be caused by human failure in the implementation of a presumably divine and perfect goal.

It is also often difficult to reach firm conclusions about Islaam, in no small measure because Muslims are not always very cooperative. Case in point, the concept of Taqiya.

Taqiya - Wikipedia

As for calling Islaam a religion, I would advise you to consider whether that is warranted. I have no idea of what you expect of a religion, but a couple of years ago I concluded that Islaam falls way short of my own expectations. It is just too busy with other concerns to even make a serious attempt at attaining such a status.

Right. I think the problem revolves around the very word "Islam" or "submission".

...Can someone who is completely submissive think outside what they're supposed to think?

That's the big question for me. Because in Islam, I've read that even the angels in heaven are not capable of making decisions on their own. Everything comes from Allah... With that, it makes me wonder if freedom of conscience is not in fact discouraged in Islam... That would seem to be the precedent for ignoring criticism.

Just a thought.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How do Muslims deal with those situations, which to me at least appear to be unreasonable, contradictory expectations?

I find it curious that the OP was not created in the Islam DIR.

 

[Cooky]

I find it curious that the OP was not created in the Islam DIR.

I think it's best to study Islam from the outside.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think it's best to study Islam from the outside.

As with Catholicism?

 

[Cooky]

As with Catholicism?

Maybe in another thread.

 

[sayak83]

It seems to me that Muslims live under a huge set of expectations, many of which are very much at odds with each other, at least when confronted with the real world.

In this thread I want to present one example.

Questioning whether other people who claim to be adherents of Islaam should be considered Muslims seems to be a very rude attitude, perhaps even when those people are hypotheticals with no clear correspondence to real world people.

Yet there is also the insistence that Muslims should be united and never take arms against each other. Despite having done so time and again, century after century, to the point that it should be expected.

How do Muslims deal with those situations, which to me at least appear to be unreasonable, contradictory expectations? Are there Sunni Muslims that doubt the existence of the Battle of Karbala, for instance? Is it perhaps perceived as bad manners to mention that battle to Sunnis? What are the current views of the Iraq/Iran war of the 1980s? Is it perhaps proposed in any seriousness that one or the other side did not have any significant number of Muslims?

Christians have fought other Christians too despite Jesus's message of loving ones enemy. What of that? Human imperfections is the explanation given.

 

[Cooky]

Human imperfections is the explanation given.

For me, it's just that I want to be sure. Because the current statistics and all seem suspicious.

...Also, to want to help is human nature. And we're all human together in this world.

 

[sayak83]

For me, it's just that I want to be sure. Because the current statistics and all seem suspicious.

...Also, to want to help is human nature. And we're all human together in this world.

I did not get what you mean.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

How can Muslims reconcile their directives?

Same way every other religion with apparent internal contradictions does, probably.

 

[Cooky]

I did not get what you mean.

It seems that your point was that there is nothing inherently wrong with the teachings of Islam, but rather, that there just happens to be a lot of flaws in peoples thinking in general... Yet at the same time, we see so much violence in Islamic countries between various religious and political sects.

...Just a coincidence? Because lately, I don't see republicans and democrats, or Catholics and Protestants blowing each other up anymore. Maybe we've improved over time?

Ultimately, as one common human race, I feel obliged to extend whatever it is that we have to the Islamic world, to help them find peace like we have -Only because I care about people.

 

[LuisDantas]

I find it curious that the OP was not created in the Islam DIR.

That would serve no purpose. A DIR does not allow meaningful replies.

 

[LuisDantas]

Right. I think the problem revolves around the very word "Islam" or "submission".

...Can someone who is completely submissive think outside what they're supposed to think?

That's the big question for me. Because in Islam, I've read that even the angels in heaven are not capable of making decisions on their own.

Isn't that also the understanding of most Christian doctrines? IIRC, free will is not something that angels have.

I agree that submissions as a core directive is, at the very least, noteworthy.

Everything comes from Allah... With that, it makes me wonder if freedom of conscience is not in fact discouraged in Islam... That would seem to be the precedent for ignoring criticism.

Just a thought.

I have a few thoughts of my own on this matter, but it is better if I can learn from others.

 

[LuisDantas]

Christians have fought other Christians too despite Jesus's message of loving ones enemy. What of that? Human imperfections is the explanation given.

For Christianity, sure. Islaam is a very different case, as I have learned.

 

[LuisDantas]

Same way every other religion with apparent internal contradictions does, probably.

Nope.