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How can morality exist without god?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Polarbear, Jun 11, 2012.

  1. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    There is nothing in atheism that allows for sufficient justification concerning morality, justice, the sanctity of life, the concept of right and wrong, altruism ETC.... An atheist can do or think anything he wants about these issues he just has no sufficient way to justify or rationalize them in atheism. Atheism is morally impotent and nihilistic as a philosophy. Keep in mind I said an atheist can be moral he just can't justify or support these actions by atheism.
     
  2. Alceste

    Alceste Vagabond

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    Exactly, we support our ethics with reason, logic, compassion, philosophy, empirical evidence and our ideals regarding how we could make the world a better place.

    Far more sophisticated, persuasive and effective than simply reading a book and deciding to believe everything it says, IMO. What if your book is wrong? What tools do you have to show you where it is giving you poor advice? I have reason and love for my neighbors. You have nothing.
     
  3. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Since atheism cannot give meaning to the value of good or evil then there is no justifiable standard to compare your actions with. If there is no grounds for knowing what is objectively good the how can you test whether your values are correct. Morals are not accessible to an empirical test they are an abstract concept. All those things you say you use are in fact only. Since you do not have a standard to judge them by there is no way to know if they are right or even what right means.

    It isn't sophisticated, persuasive, or effective at all. It doesn't even exist. Whatever an atheist uses to adopt a moral standard is arbitrary and only opinion. In the absence of a higher standard it can't be evaluated or compared to a known standard. Since every moral claim in the bible is virtually identical to the ones humans have adopted anyway then it at least is known to be correct concerning morals. There are hundreds of other ways to establish it's reliability and it is the only foundation for moral standards that is sufficient for the needs of society.
     
    #143 1robin, Jun 16, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2012
  4. kai

    kai ragamuffin

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    so before the bible came along there were no morals at all? or what?
     
  5. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Can God? How could God ever create morality?

    I can see how a god could create a list of things saying "do this" and "don't do that", but I don't see how this could ever be construed as creating morality. It's just a set of edicts that could either be right or wrong themselves.

    So what could God possibly have to do with the existence of morality? How could God provide you with the "standard to judge" that you describe?
     
  6. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Exodus 21:20-21:

    I do acknowledge that humans (some humans) have adopted this, but are you really arguing that it's correct?

    Edit: hopefully you do acknowledge that slavery is immoral. Assuming you do, where do you get this from? Because it sure can't be found in the Bible.
     
  7. Penumbra

    Penumbra Veteran Member
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    -Some behaviors can be demonstrably better at reaching certain goals than others. For example, if I have the goal of having a lot of true friends, then being as mean as possible to everyone around me, would likely work against that goal.

    -Some goals are self-selected by nature, because they promote life and well-being rather than destroy it. Organisms with self-destructive goals, self-destruct, and that goal has a dead end. Organisms with life-promoting goals, have a better chance at living.

    So if some goals inherently make more sense for life than others, and there are behaviors that can more likely lead to achieving goals than others, then there is a rather robust framework for determining effective behavior. Far more robust than relying on writings from generations that had less knowledge about the world.

    With all the genocide and irrational rules, the Bible is a pretty good example of the opposite of my morality.

    I don't view biblical or Christian morality as particularly high up on my list of assessing the morality of various worldviews. It does not seem to be particularly rigorous, particularly consistent, or particularly insightful, compared to various other ethical worldviews I've examined.
     
  8. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    how can morality exist with god?
    you have to admit, this idea of god has been used to justify some
    questionable behavior.
     
  9. Alceste

    Alceste Vagabond

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    I'm certain all twelve of your factual claims are false. So! I guess we have an impasse! We can't both be right, and there's no way you will EVER convince me any of your claims are true, or that I will ever convince you they are false. So... :shrug:

    "Taoish" is a word I made up to convey that of all the world's diverse philosophies and spiritualities, taoism (the philosophical type, not the religious type) best resembles my own personal philosophy. It doesn't match perfectly, but it's pretty damn close - hence the "ish".

    I don't "defend or promote" taoism. Apologetics and proselytizing are Christian / Islamic hobbies. Philosophical Taoists don't operate by the same playbook. They have far fewer ridiculous ideas to defend and no interest in recruiting converts.
     
  10. Alceste

    Alceste Vagabond

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    You are only imagining that you have a standard of objective good and evil. You are just like every other religious nut who is imagining they know what God wants us to do, like that Christian I mentioned who thinks God approves of war and wants us to murder our own daughters for promiscuity. You are exactly like those Islamic men who throw acid in the faces of girls who attend school. You are exactly like those Jewish settlers who beat up Palestinians to drive them off their land. All those people are using their own personal "objective, God-given standard" to justify their evil acts. I'd be very wary of using the exact same process these wackos use to try to distinguish right from wrong.

    Subjective though it may be, I have a perfectly serviceable standard of evil: an intentional act that causes needless suffering to another living being. With that simple, easy to follow rule, I'm doing quite a lot better at being "good" than all those people I described above.

    I hate to break it to you, but your religious preferences are arbitrary and only your own opinion too. Sorry to rain on your "holier-than-thou" parade.

    How many slaves do you own? Do you allow women to speak in your church? How many animals did you sacrifice to God this year? Have you given over all your property to your church, to be shared out among all the members? Either your knowledge of what the NT demands of you is wanting or you are living a VERY unusual life.
     
    #150 Alceste, Jun 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
  11. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Quote the post where I said that. I believe all humans have a God given conscience and can behave morally without the bible. However they cannot suffeciently justify their actions without it.
     
  12. Alceste

    Alceste Vagabond

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    Sure I can. I have been sufficiently justifying my actions with nothing but reason, evidence, a decent secular education and good old fashioned friendliness for almost 37 years. Buddhists seem to do just fine without the Bible. In fact, they do WAY better at adhering to my single standard of goodness ("do no intentional harm needlessly") than Christians, generally speaking.

    You might find that when you are doing your level best to be a good person, you don't really need to "justify your actions" all that much. ;)
     
  13. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Haven´t seen that to this day, and I did challegen someone about it.

    I think of 25 prohphecies, 23 went away (amd some proven irrebocably false) by a SUPERFICIAL research. Wouldn´t surprise me a little more in depth one would have disappeared the last ones. If not, luck still exists.

    BTW, I dont remember even one being extremely detailed an exact, except the ones I proved wrong BECAUSE they were detailed and were clearly not fulfilled in the way they said they would be.




    Did you meant to say extremely vague and when not, inaccurate? Because if you did, why would that validate the bible? and if you didn´t, then are you sure you have read the thing?




    You know that New York exists?

    I was surprised too, you wouldn´t believe all the places that appear on

    [​IMG]


    and exist too.


    Comicbooks are written by different authors too and trust me, they are way more coherent (and TRUST ME that is NOT saying much.)

    The standards of anyone saying this are just too low.


    A lot of people find it lacking on all this accounts. Count me on them by the way.

    To which books are you comparing it? This claim is entirely subjective, similarly to the one above.

    Again, entirely subjective. So this is also worthless. I find the system of the bible to be incoherent, contradictory extremely capricious and more than once downright immoral. (like slavery and genocide immoral)

    Accuracy on what? if you are merely talking that the cities or events that it quotes existed, then there are compiling all the greek and roman myths may do it some competition. Comics also would by the way :p

    If 5% is truly the only inaccurate part, then I am sure that a lot of important bull that today is still revered as holy is included there.

    With some (of thousands... ) of accepted philosophies.

    Any religion can make that claim.

    Heck, any person can make that claim. Even childs.

    Again subjective. I find the mahabharat way, way, WAY more sophisticated consistent, sufficient and profound than the bible. The same goes for theravada buddhist teachings.

    And I mean WAY out of the poor and low league of the bible.

    But both are claims are still technicaly subjective.

    Again, I find hinduism topping it in this quality. Again, it is still entirely subjective.

    All religions are unique in their own ways anyways. That doesn´t prove they are the "real" one, that proves they are... well, their own religion.



    This is a site called guttenberg.org

    Project Gutenberg - free ebooks

    Now, I admit that the bible is one of the top 100 more downloaded books, but please look that it is not number one nor number two.

    Top 100 - Project Gutenberg

    The first place goes to sherlock holmes, with the second place going to a book far more enjoyable to read and to practice than the bible.

    What? I wont tell you which, you gotta go see :p
     
    #153 Me Myself, Jun 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
  14. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Are you actually unsure how a omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being could provide morals when even us humans have done so. It is derived by codifying those actions that are consistent with his nature.

    If they were given by God then they are universal absolute standard. See above for your other claim.

    I swear sometimes the questions that have the most obvious answers trouble non believers the most. It is as simple as codifying requirements consistent with his nature and purpose. Writing those codes in a book and implanting them in our conscience. God is the only rational justification for morals. There are many philosophers that insist that is the only possible source for morality. Since humans have this capability I wonder why you think a God could not.
     
  15. Alceste

    Alceste Vagabond

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    And if they were not?
     
  16. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Then people are turning off their own moral standards for blind obidience to someone else´s bull that is millenia old.
     
  17. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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  18. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Arbitrary? like having faith in the bible?
     
  19. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    The two ton elephant in the room is the fact believers have no objective means of demonstrating their morals to be absolute. You can talk your way around that all you want, but the elephant remains in the room.
     
  20. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Dude, you forgot to mention it is pink with yellow dots :(
     
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