1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How can God be Jesus, and the father, yet Jesus not be the father?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Desert Snake, May 11, 2015.

  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,655
    Ratings:
    +1,698
    Pretty simple question. My belief is that Jesus is a manifestation of the father, so they are the 'same', except, in form. //In my belief context, ''Jesus'' is not a deified fisherman carpenter Rabbi, btw.

    How can God be Jesus, and the father, yet Jesus not be the father?
     
    #1 Desert Snake, May 11, 2015
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
  2. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    20,303
    Ratings:
    +2,675
    How can God be Jesus, and the father, yet Jesus not be the father?

    Jesus was never a G-d. It is a wrong notion.
    Regards
     
  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,655
    Ratings:
    +1,698
    That's not an argument, and in the OP, I state that I believe that Jesus is a manifestation of the father. So, you are correct, He was never a ///separate god.
     
  4. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    20,303
    Ratings:
    +2,675
    You mean that Jesus was a manifestation of G-d like Abraham, Moses and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908? Please elaborate.

    Regards
     
    #4 paarsurrey, May 11, 2015
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,655
    Ratings:
    +1,698
    No, different. Those are 'humans'. Jesus as a 'man' is not literal, that is why He doesn't have a father, and is blessed from birth, as opposed to attaining divinity at His ''baptism'' by John , as some believe. His nature in 'man' persona is different as well, He is sinless. When Jesus teaches people, on earth, this is part of the ''man aspect'', but He always has His divinity, that is why people said He came from heaven. Came from heaven is not being poetic, it means that He is a Deity. In the religious paradigm of the Israelite monotheism, this means that He is God, in other words, the 'father', as the Deity is one in 'person'.
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,321
    Ratings:
    +13,284
    What do you mean by manististation if that doesnt mean He is deified?
     
  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    20,303
    Ratings:
    +2,675
    What do you mean by literal? Do you mean Jesus was not real?
    Regards
     
  8. SkylarHunter

    SkylarHunter Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2013
    Messages:
    674
    Ratings:
    +381
    Religion:
    Poor excuse of a christian
    Jesus is not God. He's God's son, not the same person.
     
  9. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,655
    Ratings:
    +1,698
    When we talk about Esa, we are regarding His deific nature. He could very well have an Israelite, a 'man', however, his nature is that of a Deity. This is why He is regarded as G-d, by Xians. The non-Human form of Jesus, is also Jesus, yet we clearly know that He is Deific; so, ''real'', here is not what Jesus adherents would be completely focused on, we don't worship a man. We worship His Deific form, nature, regardless of Him being part man or a manifestation of G-d.

    This really depends on how you are defining ''real''.
     
  10. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,655
    Ratings:
    +1,698
    So you say. I think you have just as many verses to unscramble, as I might. Good thing I don't rely on the Xian Bible for my beliefs, it is merely stories relating to G-d.
     
  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    37,753
    Ratings:
    +5,897
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Your belief is incongruent with the doctrine of the Trinity, yet assumes a Trinitarian identity. That's why it doesn't work. The doctrine clearly states that the Father and the Son are two different Persons. The Son is not a "manifestation" of the Father.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,655
    Ratings:
    +1,698
    I don't know what ''Trinitarian identity'', is supposed to mean. If G-d is the father, and G-d is also Jesus, yet the ''father'' is not Jesus, how does that make sense? I noticed that you didn't explain that seeming contradiction.
     
  13. Awoon

    Awoon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    5,377
    Ratings:
    +375
    In the Religion ABOUT Jesus, all actions are possible and impossible.
     
  14. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    20,303
    Ratings:
    +2,675
    All prophets/messengers of G-d like Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Socrates, Muhammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908) being in the image of G-d were endowed this deific nature; Jesus/Esa had no distinction whatsoever in this connection.

    Regards
     
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    37,753
    Ratings:
    +5,897
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    You say that your belief is Trinitarian. But it isn't, because you don't fully embrace the doctrine. Think of "God" as one community instead of one being. Each "member" of the community is the community, itself, but is not the other people in the community. It's a level of perfection of community that we can -- as fully self-differentiated human beings -- never understand, until we become spiritually aware that, even with separate identities, we are still really one with everything else. Perhaps John Lennon put it best: "I am he, as you are he, as you are me, and we are all together."
     
  16. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,655
    Ratings:
    +1,698
    No I didn't. ''Trinitarian' is a confusing label, I wouldn't use that.

    Guess not!
    Nahh, I'm good.
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    37,753
    Ratings:
    +5,897
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    What makes you say that Jesus is the Father?
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,655
    Ratings:
    +1,698
    Because He is G-d. Therefore, He has to be the father. I think that this is also backed by the various scripture that equates Esa to the father. We aren't supposed to be reading into the text that Jesus is a literal son of god, or just a Rabbi, when He is equated to the father.
     
    #18 Desert Snake, May 11, 2015
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
  19. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,655
    Ratings:
    +1,698
    Ok, heres the theology, lol. G-d, who is the father, incarnates, via Mary, as Esa. Esa is not 'literally' the son of G-d, He is an image, a manifestation, of G-d. //the father. That is why He is called both the son of god, and G-d. He is the ''son of G-d'', in a metaphoric sense, He is G-d, through Spirit.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    37,753
    Ratings:
    +5,897
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    I see. So, what is the nature of teaser "two Jesuses," and how are differentiated and identified in the texts?
     
Loading...