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How can God be Jesus, and the father, yet Jesus not be the father?

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Pretty simple question. My belief is that Jesus is a manifestation of the father, so they are the 'same', except, in form. //In my belief context, ''Jesus'' is not a deified fisherman carpenter Rabbi, btw.

How can God be Jesus, and the father, yet Jesus not be the father?
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
How can God be Jesus, and the father, yet Jesus not be the father?

Jesus was never a G-d. It is a wrong notion.
Regards
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
How can God be Jesus, and the father, yet Jesus not be the father?

Jesus was never a G-d. It is a wrong notion.
Regards
That's not an argument, and in the OP, I state that I believe that Jesus is a manifestation of the father. So, you are correct, He was never a ///separate god.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I believe that Jesus is a manifestation of the father. So, you are correct, He was never a ///separate god.

You mean that Jesus was a manifestation of G-d like Abraham, Moses and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908? Please elaborate.

Regards
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
You mean that Jesus was a manifestation of G-d like Abraham, Moses and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908? Please elaborate.

Regards
No, different. Those are 'humans'. Jesus as a 'man' is not literal, that is why He doesn't have a father, and is blessed from birth, as opposed to attaining divinity at His ''baptism'' by John , as some believe. His nature in 'man' persona is different as well, He is sinless. When Jesus teaches people, on earth, this is part of the ''man aspect'', but He always has His divinity, that is why people said He came from heaven. Came from heaven is not being poetic, it means that He is a Deity. In the religious paradigm of the Israelite monotheism, this means that He is God, in other words, the 'father', as the Deity is one in 'person'.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Pretty simple question. My belief is that Jesus is a manifestation of the father, so they are the 'same', except, in form. //In my belief context, ''Jesus'' is not a deified fisherman carpenter Rabbi, btw.

How can God be Jesus, and the father, yet Jesus not be the father?
What do you mean by manististation if that doesnt mean He is deified?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
What do you mean by literal? Do you mean Jesus was not real?
Regards
When we talk about Esa, we are regarding His deific nature. He could very well have an Israelite, a 'man', however, his nature is that of a Deity. This is why He is regarded as G-d, by Xians. The non-Human form of Jesus, is also Jesus, yet we clearly know that He is Deific; so, ''real'', here is not what Jesus adherents would be completely focused on, we don't worship a man. We worship His Deific form, nature, regardless of Him being part man or a manifestation of G-d.

This really depends on how you are defining ''real''.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Pretty simple question. My belief is that Jesus is a manifestation of the father, so they are the 'same', except, in form. //In my belief context, ''Jesus'' is not a deified fisherman carpenter Rabbi, btw.

How can God be Jesus, and the father, yet Jesus not be the father?
Your belief is incongruent with the doctrine of the Trinity, yet assumes a Trinitarian identity. That's why it doesn't work. The doctrine clearly states that the Father and the Son are two different Persons. The Son is not a "manifestation" of the Father.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Your belief is incongruent with the doctrine of the Trinity, yet assumes a Trinitarian identity. That's why it doesn't work. The doctrine clearly states that the Father and the Son are two different Persons. The Son is not a "manifestation" of the Father.
I don't know what ''Trinitarian identity'', is supposed to mean. If G-d is the father, and G-d is also Jesus, yet the ''father'' is not Jesus, how does that make sense? I noticed that you didn't explain that seeming contradiction.
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
Pretty simple question. My belief is that Jesus is a manifestation of the father, so they are the 'same', except, in form. //In my belief context, ''Jesus'' is not a deified fisherman carpenter Rabbi, btw.

How can God be Jesus, and the father, yet Jesus not be the father?

In the Religion ABOUT Jesus, all actions are possible and impossible.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
When we talk about Esa, we are regarding His deific nature. He could very well have an Israelite, a 'man', however, his nature is that of a Deity. This is why He is regarded as G-d, by Xians. The non-Human form of Jesus, is also Jesus, yet we clearly know that He is Deific; so, ''real'', here is not what Jesus adherents would be completely focused on, we don't worship a man. We worship His Deific form, nature, regardless of Him being part man or a manifestation of G-d.

This really depends on how you are defining ''real''.

All prophets/messengers of G-d like Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Socrates, Muhammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908) being in the image of G-d were endowed this deific nature; Jesus/Esa had no distinction whatsoever in this connection.

Regards
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I don't know what ''Trinitarian identity'', is supposed to mean. If G-d is the father, and G-d is also Jesus, yet the ''father'' is not Jesus, how does that make sense? I noticed that you didn't explain that seeming contradiction.
You say that your belief is Trinitarian. But it isn't, because you don't fully embrace the doctrine. Think of "God" as one community instead of one being. Each "member" of the community is the community, itself, but is not the other people in the community. It's a level of perfection of community that we can -- as fully self-differentiated human beings -- never understand, until we become spiritually aware that, even with separate identities, we are still really one with everything else. Perhaps John Lennon put it best: "I am he, as you are he, as you are me, and we are all together."
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
You say that your belief is Trinitarian.

No I didn't. ''Trinitarian' is a confusing label, I wouldn't use that.

But it isn't, because you don't fully embrace the doctrine.

Guess not!
Think of "God" as one community instead of one being. Each "member" of the community is the community, itself, but is not the other people in the community. It's a level of perfection of community that we can -- as fully self-differentiated human beings -- never understand, until we become spiritually aware that, even with separate identities, we are still really one with everything else. Perhaps John Lennon put it best: "I am he, as you are he, as you are me, and we are all together."

Nahh, I'm good.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
What makes you say that Jesus is the Father?
Because He is G-d. Therefore, He has to be the father. I think that this is also backed by the various scripture that equates Esa to the father. We aren't supposed to be reading into the text that Jesus is a literal son of god, or just a Rabbi, when He is equated to the father.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
What makes you say that Jesus is the Father?
Ok, heres the theology, lol. G-d, who is the father, incarnates, via Mary, as Esa. Esa is not 'literally' the son of G-d, He is an image, a manifestation, of G-d. //the father. That is why He is called both the son of god, and G-d. He is the ''son of G-d'', in a metaphoric sense, He is G-d, through Spirit.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Because He is G-d. Therefore, He has to be the father. I think that this is also backed by the various scripture that equates Esa to the father. I think that there are ...like.. two Jesus's, in the text. We aren't supposed to be reading into the text that Jesus is a literal son of god, or just a Rabbi, when He is equated to the father. That's just the way I read the Scripture.

I see. So, what is the nature of teaser "two Jesuses," and how are differentiated and identified in the texts?
 
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