How can atheists explain precognitive dreams?

[sovietchild]

“The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried” Prophet Muhammad once said. How can atheists explain precognitive dreams? I'm pretty sure most of us had at list once a precognitive dream, it could be about your self or somebody else.

About 5 years ago I believe I had a dream about Superjet 100 crash. I was on the plane. The plane took off and it was flying low, the captain was not looking straight and was talking on his radio while looking at his right side window, when looked straight there was a tall skyscraper coming our way, as he tried to pull up it was too late. The plane hit the skyscraper. As I walking out of the plane, I look at the captain and said to my self "stupid pilot". Few month later after I had that dream, SSJ-100 aircraft crashed on a demonstration flight operating from Halim Perdanakusuma Airport, Jakarta, Indonesia. The final report, released 18 December 2012, indicated that the accident was caused by crew members ignoring terrain warnings that they had incorrectly attributed to a database problem. The crew had turned off the terrain warning system and were unaware that they were operating in close proximity to mountains. The crew, including the captain, were engaging in conversation with potential customers as the aircraft impacted the ground.

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

 

[fantome profane]

How often do people dream of plane crashes, and there is no plane crash? How often do people dream of car accidents that don't happen? Is there really a "success rate" for precognitive dreams that is greater than just random chance?

You dreamt of a plane crash, and then a plane crashed. But how many planes didn't crash in those few months between your dream and the event you believe the dream predicted? And what else did you dream in those months?

What I am saying is that in all of the dreams dreamt by the billions of people on this planet, and of all of the events that occur every day, we are bound to see a few co-incidences.

 

[Sunstone]

Even if there are genuine precognitive dreams, SovietChild, it would be distastefully sloppy logic to conclude that they demonstrated or proved the existence of a god. That's because it is possible that they could have a wholly natural explanation which is currently unknown to our sciences for any of several reasons.

Please note, SovietChild, I do not dispute that a relatively few dreams -- perhaps even yours -- could be genuinely precognitive. That is a possibility which cannot be soundly ruled out. I do, however, disagree with the appallingly illogical conclusion that such dreams necessitate the existence of deity.

Down that path lies madness.

 

[Sunstone]

How often do people dream of plane crashes, and there is no plane crash? How often do people dream of car accidents that don't happen? Is there really a "success rate" for precognitive dreams that is greater than just random chance?

You dreamt of a plane crash, and then a plane crashed. But how many planes didn't crash in those few months between your dream and the event you believe the dream predicted? And what else did you dream in those months?

What I am saying is that in all of the dreams dreamt by the billions of people on this planet, and of all of the events that occur every day, we are bound to see a few co-incidences.

I quite agree with your point, Fantome, you wicked genius, but I should like to note that your point does encounter a slight difficulty when applied as an explanation to some -- but not most -- allegedly precognitive dreams. There are a few accounts of precognitive dreams that it would be implausible to explain as coincidences, mostly because they are way too detailed.

I'll offer one example In the 1800s, a Zen monk dreamed that he was going to die on a certain date at a certain time. He was so convinced by something about his dream that it was accurate, that he mailed out 100 postcards to various people announcing that he would die on that date and at that time. He then spent his remaining days visiting his closest friends. The day and time came and -- precisely on schedule -- he died.

Now to explain that away as a coincidence seems implausible. If one wishes to dismiss it, then it is far easier to dismiss it as a self-fulfilling prophecy. i.e. the monk died because he so strongly expected to die. However, coincidence seems highly unlikely

By the way, I read of the monk while at university, which was 40 years ago, and pre-internet. I no longer recall the source of the story, and my attempts to find it via the internet have been unsuccessful.

 

[fantome profane]

I quite agree with your point, Fantome, you wicked genius, but I should like to note that your point does encounter a slight difficulty when applied as an explanation to some -- but not most -- allegedly precognitive dreams. There are a few accounts of precognitive dreams that it would be implausible to explain as coincidences, mostly because they are way too detailed.

I'll offer one example In the 1800s, a Zen monk dreamed that he was going to die on a certain date at a certain time. He was so convinced by something about his dream that it was accurate, that he mailed out 100 postcards to various people announcing that he would die on that date and at that time. He then spent his remaining days visiting his closest friends. The day and time came and -- precisely on schedule -- he died.

Now to explain that away as a coincidence seems implausible. If one wishes to dismiss it, then it is far easier to dismiss it as a self-fulfilling prophecy. i.e. the monk died because he so strongly expected to die. However, coincidence seems highly unlikely

By the way, I read of the monk while at university, which was 40 years ago, and pre-internet. I no longer recall the source of the story, and my attempts to find it via the internet have been unsuccessful.

With all due respect, I just don't believe this story. Maybe there is a good reason you are unable to find it on the internet.

You say my argument has a difficulty, I don't think it does. I have heard stories like the one you tell before, where the details of the story make co-incidence impossible. But I have never experienced anything like that myself, and I have never seen sufficient evidence of such a thing actually happening. On the day I do, then I will have a problem. Maybe that day will be tomorrow. But that day... is not today. Sorry.

 

[Sunstone]

With all due respect, I just don't believe this story. Maybe there is a good reason you are unable to find it on the internet.

You say my argument has a difficulty, I don't think it does. I have heard stories like the one you tell before, where the details of the story make co-incidence impossible. But I have never experienced anything like that myself, and I have never seen sufficient evidence of such a thing actually happening. On the day I do, then I will have a problem. Maybe that day will be tomorrow. But that day... is not today. Sorry.

No need to apologize, you have every right to your opinion. But I myself won't speculate for why I have not yet found the story on the internet other than to remark it seems incredibly naive to suppose everything is on the internet -- even today. Surely that cannot be your honest expectation.

 

[fantome profane]

No need to apologize, you have every right to your opinion. But I myself won't speculate for why I have not yet found the story on the internet other than to remark it seems incredibly naive to suppose everything is on the internet -- even today. Surely that cannot be your honest expectation.

I expect nothing. And I am rarely disappointed.

 

[Twilight Hue]

“The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried” Prophet Muhammad once said. How can atheists explain precognitive dreams? I'm pretty sure most of us had at list once a precognitive dream, it could be about your self or somebody else.

About 5 years ago I believe I had a dream about Superjet 100 crash. I was on the plane. The plane took off and it was flying low, the captain was not looking straight and was talking on his radio while looking at his right side window, when looked straight there was a tall skyscraper coming our way, as he tried to pull up it was too late. The plane hit the skyscraper. As I walking out of the plane, I look at the captain and said to my self "stupid pilot". Few month later after I had that dream, SSJ-100 aircraft crashed on a demonstration flight operating from Halim Perdanakusuma Airport, Jakarta, Indonesia. The final report, released 18 December 2012, indicated that the accident was caused by crew members ignoring terrain warnings that they had incorrectly attributed to a database problem. The crew had turned off the terrain warning system and were unaware that they were operating in close proximity to mountains. The crew, including the captain, were engaging in conversation with potential customers as the aircraft impacted the ground.

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

Given enough time and probability, some people are bound to hit the mark.

 

[bobhikes]

“The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried” Prophet Muhammad once said. How can atheists explain precognitive dreams? I'm pretty sure most of us had at list once a precognitive dream, it could be about your self or somebody else.

About 5 years ago I believe I had a dream about Superjet 100 crash. I was on the plane. The plane took off and it was flying low, the captain was not looking straight and was talking on his radio while looking at his right side window, when looked straight there was a tall skyscraper coming our way, as he tried to pull up it was too late. The plane hit the skyscraper. As I walking out of the plane, I look at the captain and said to my self "stupid pilot". Few month later after I had that dream, SSJ-100 aircraft crashed on a demonstration flight operating from Halim Perdanakusuma Airport, Jakarta, Indonesia. The final report, released 18 December 2012, indicated that the accident was caused by crew members ignoring terrain warnings that they had incorrectly attributed to a database problem. The crew had turned off the terrain warning system and were unaware that they were operating in close proximity to mountains. The crew, including the captain, were engaging in conversation with potential customers as the aircraft impacted the ground.

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

I look at it this way. The mind is always predicting outcomes. In fact there is a time delay from the senses to action that it needs to make up for. The mind is pretty good at it just look at professional sports. Every once in a while it predicts are very accurate scenario in a day or night dream. This is precognition. Its a random event based off of millions of try's and not possible reliably create on demand.

 

[Spideymon77]

It's probably just a coincidence. Of course, stuff like this is incredible. I have not experienced anything like this before but I don't think it has anything to do with believing in a God anyways...

 

[sovietchild]

In Islam, we believe that Allah knows everything and that He knew everything about His creation even before He brought them into being. His foreknowledge includes their provisions, their appointed time in life, their words and deeds, all their doings, whatever they conceal and reveal, those who will be admitted into Paradise as well as those who will be sent to Hellfire.

When the prophet (Muhammad) was once asked about faith, he said, “It is to believe in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, the Last Day and to believe in the divine decree, the good and the bad of it.” (Saheeh Muslim: 8)

Allah says in the Qur'an: "Verily We have created every thing to a determined measure." (54:49)

 

[Father Heathen]

I'll offer one example In the 1800s, a Zen monk dreamed that he was going to die on a certain date at a certain time. He was so convinced by something about his dream that it was accurate, that he mailed out 100 postcards to various people announcing that he would die on that date and at that time. He then spent his remaining days visiting his closest friends. The day and time came and -- precisely on schedule -- he died.

Now to explain that away as a coincidence seems implausible. If one wishes to dismiss it, then it is far easier to dismiss it as a self-fulfilling prophecy. i.e. the monk died because he so strongly expected to die. However, coincidence seems highly unlikely

By the way, I read of the monk while at university, which was 40 years ago, and pre-internet. I no longer recall the source of the story, and my attempts to find it via the internet have been unsuccessful.

I've read it before, but as part of a collection of koans rather than as a historical occurrence.

 

[LuisDantas]

@sovietchild , I don't think that involving some deity in any attempt at explaining precognitions is any help at all - even if we take for granted that precognition is actually possible and real.

"God did it / wanted it so" is no explanation at all, for anything.

 

[David T]

“The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried” Prophet Muhammad once said. How can atheists explain precognitive dreams? I'm pretty sure most of us had at list once a precognitive dream, it could be about your self or somebody else.

About 5 years ago I believe I had a dream about Superjet 100 crash. I was on the plane. The plane took off and it was flying low, the captain was not looking straight and was talking on his radio while looking at his right side window, when looked straight there was a tall skyscraper coming our way, as he tried to pull up it was too late. The plane hit the skyscraper. As I walking out of the plane, I look at the captain and said to my self "stupid pilot". Few month later after I had that dream, SSJ-100 aircraft crashed on a demonstration flight operating from Halim Perdanakusuma Airport, Jakarta, Indonesia. The final report, released 18 December 2012, indicated that the accident was caused by crew members ignoring terrain warnings that they had incorrectly attributed to a database problem. The crew had turned off the terrain warning system and were unaware that they were operating in close proximity to mountains. The crew, including the captain, were engaging in conversation with potential customers as the aircraft impacted the ground.

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

Jung called it Synchronicity its common we generally are not aware of it..it does not mean reality is guide by a being or computer independent and outside of reality and rendering this reality just a virtual reality. Ok religious forums itself is virtual I didn't mean this this!!! Lol. Atheism has got some things absolutely right they reject a reality independent of reality. Its too bad they tend to define the topic GOD as that literally exactly like southern bptists. That part I do find strange.

 

[Sunstone]

I've read it before, but as part of a collection of koans rather than as a historical occurrence.

Interesting! Do you recall the name of the collection?

 

[ArtieE]

In Islam, we believe that Allah knows everything and that He knew everything about His creation even before He brought them into being. His foreknowledge includes their provisions, their appointed time in life, their words and deeds, all their doings, whatever they conceal and reveal, those who will be admitted into Paradise as well as those who will be sent to Hellfire.

You're talking about the block universe derived from Einstein's Theory of Relativity. What is a block universe? | plus.maths.org

 

[Father Heathen]

Interesting! Do you recall the name of the collection?

Been a few years since I came across it. No luck finding it with google so far.

The closest thing I could find was this guy: Hara Tanzan - Wikipedia

The whole thing could be a case of events becoming increasingly embellished as they were retold overtime.

 

[columbus]

Interesting! Do you recall the name of the collection?

That story was told by someone here on RF. Try @George-ananda
Tom

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I look at it this way. The mind is always predicting outcomes. In fact there is a time delay from the senses to action that it needs to make up for. The mind is pretty good at it just look at professional sports. Every once in a while it predicts are very accurate scenario in a day or night dream. This is precognition. Its a random event based off of millions of try's and not possible reliably create on demand.

Yes, while I believe I have a gift of precognition, I can also accept that it might just be "running the numbers" on steroids, so to speak.

 

[Shad]

“The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried” Prophet Muhammad once said. How can atheists explain precognitive dreams? I'm pretty sure most of us had at list once a precognitive dream, it could be about your self or somebody else.

About 5 years ago I believe I had a dream about Superjet 100 crash. I was on the plane. The plane took off and it was flying low, the captain was not looking straight and was talking on his radio while looking at his right side window, when looked straight there was a tall skyscraper coming our way, as he tried to pull up it was too late. The plane hit the skyscraper. As I walking out of the plane, I look at the captain and said to my self "stupid pilot". Few month later after I had that dream, SSJ-100 aircraft crashed on a demonstration flight operating from Halim Perdanakusuma Airport, Jakarta, Indonesia. The final report, released 18 December 2012, indicated that the accident was caused by crew members ignoring terrain warnings that they had incorrectly attributed to a database problem. The crew had turned off the terrain warning system and were unaware that they were operating in close proximity to mountains. The crew, including the captain, were engaging in conversation with potential customers as the aircraft impacted the ground.

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

Simply. Your dream was not a precognitive dream. You had one detail right, the plane type, nothing more. You then found the closest event that you can match to your dream and called it a day.

The above is how most of these so-called dream come down to. Ignoring the misses which can not be modified into hits.