How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Skywalker]

So where did the communion come from? From my research it's an occult practice.

Cursing a fig tree? What does that sound like to you?

The communion was not taken from MIthraism. Jesus Vs Mithra – Debunking The Alleged Parallels | Reasons for Jesus

Critics try to give the rite some ancestry by claiming that it derives from an Iranian Mithraic ceremony using a psychadelic plant called Haoma, but they are clearly grasping at straws and adding speculations of meaning in order to make this rite seem similar to the Eucharist.

This piece of “evidence” is far, far too late to be useful — except as possible proof that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity! (Christianity of course was in Persia far earlier than this medieval text; see Martin Palmer’s Jesus Sutras for details.)

 

[Skywalker]

Cursing the fig tree sounds like sorcery to me.

Also, indwelling... it's a form of spirit possession. It's practiced in daoism.

Sorcery means things like magic tricks or tarot card readings. What Jesus did had nothing to do with either. Why did Jesus curse the fig tree? | GotQuestions.org

The presence of a fruitful fig tree was considered to be a symbol of blessing and prosperity for the nation of Israel. Likewise, the absence or death of a fig tree would symbolize judgment and rejection. Symbolically, the fig tree represented the spiritual deadness of Israel, who while very religious outwardly with all the sacrifices and ceremonies, were spiritually barren because of their sins. By cleansing the Temple and cursing the fig tree, causing it to whither and die, Jesus was pronouncing His coming judgment of Israel and demonstrating His power to carry it out. It also teaches the principle that religious profession and observance are not enough to guarantee salvation, unless there is the fruit of genuine salvation evidenced in the life of the person. James would later echo this truth when he wrote that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26). The lesson of the fig tree is that we should bear spiritual fruit (Galatians 5:22-23), not just give an appearance of religiosity. God judges fruitlessness, and expects that those who have a relationship with Him will “bear much fruit” (John 15:5-8).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see the answer is actually quite simple, but hard to implement.

When one is happy and content with life and belief, they are in no need of looking outside of that safety net.

Personally, I see we need to constantly look outside, but mostly we do not like what we find, it means we need to change.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

The communion was not taken from MIthraism.

Is there anything in Tanach that is similar in any way? Any? If not then it would be an element of a new religion.

Sorcery means things like magic tricks or tarot card readings. What Jesus did had nothing to do with either.

From my pesepctive it looks like a magic trick. Unless there's something similar in Tanach, it's perfectly reasonable to consider cursing trees a foreign practice. A rigid definition of sorcery is not important.

 

[Skywalker]

Is there anything in Tanach that is similar in any way? Any? If not then it would be an element of a new religion.

From my pesepctive it looks like a magic trick. Unless there's something similar in Tanach, it's perfectly reasonable to consider cursing trees a foreign practice. A rigid definition of sorcery is not important.

What about Numbers 21:9?

And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

 

[dybmh]

What about Numbers 21:9?

Not comparable unless Moses claimed others could do the same thing.

 

[Skywalker]

Not comparable unless Moses claimed others could do the same thing.

Why could others do the same thing? It was a miracle that happened to spare the Israelites from suffering.

 

[dybmh]

Why could others do the same thing? It was a miracle that happened to spare the Israelites from suffering.

God tells Moses to make a staff. It doesn't say that others could make the ame staff.

In the Christian bible, Jesus says others can do what he did if they believe. That's the difference.

Jesus claimed that others could curse the fig tree like he did. Moses did not claim that others could make the staff like he did.

The miracles/magic-tricks aren't comparable.

 

[Skywalker]

God tells Moses to make a staff. It doesn't say that others could make the ame staff.

In the Christian bible, Jesus says others can do what he did if they believe. That's the difference.

Jesus claimed that others could curse the fig tree like he did. Moses did not claim that others could make the staff like he did.

The miracles/magic-tricks aren't comparable.

It was also a lesson/parable about spiritual fruit. Why did Jesus curse the fig tree? | GotQuestions.org

The presence of a fruitful fig tree was considered to be a symbol of blessing and prosperity for the nation of Israel. Likewise, the absence or death of a fig tree would symbolize judgment and rejection. Symbolically, the fig tree represented the spiritual deadness of Israel, who while very religious outwardly with all the sacrifices and ceremonies, were spiritually barren because of their sins. By cleansing the Temple and cursing the fig tree, causing it to whither and die, Jesus was pronouncing His coming judgment of Israel and demonstrating His power to carry it out. It also teaches the principle that religious profession and observance are not enough to guarantee salvation, unless there is the fruit of genuine salvation evidenced in the life of the person. James would later echo this truth when he wrote that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26). The lesson of the fig tree is that we should bear spiritual fruit (Galatians 5:22-23), not just give an appearance of religiosity. God judges fruitlessness, and expects that those who have a relationship with Him will “bear much fruit” (John 15:5-8).

 

[dybmh]

It was also a lesson/parable about spiritual fruit.

Can you find anything similar to this parable in Tanach? From my perspective, even the lesson that the parable teaches is foreign.

From your quote:

religious profession and observance are not enough to guarantee salvation, unless there is the fruit of genuine salvation evidenced in the life of the person.

Is there anything similar to this ^^ that reflects a connection to Judaism? If not, the parable of cursing the fig tree is a feature of a different/new religion.

 

[Skywalker]

Can you find anything similar to this parable in Tanach? From my perspective, even the lesson that the parable teaches is foreign.

From your quote:



Is there anything similar to this ^^ that reflects a connection to Judaism? If not, the parable of cursing the fig tree is a feature of a different/new religion.

In the Tanakh God was patient with the Canaanites but his patience ran out when they were judged. What is the meaning of the Parable of the Fig Tree? | GotQuestions.org

The lesson for the individual is that borrowed time is not permanent. God’s patience has a limit. In the parable, the vineyard owner grants another year of life to the tree. In the same way, God in His mercy grants us another day, another hour, another breath. Christ stands at the door of each man’s heart knocking and seeking to gain entrance and requiring repentance from sin. But if there is no fruit, no repentance, His patience will come to an end, and the fruitless, unrepentant individual will be cut down. We all live on borrowed time; judgment is near. That is why the prophet Isaiah wrote, "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon" (Isaiah 55:6-7).

 

[Skywalker]

Can you find anything similar to this parable in Tanach? From my perspective, even the lesson that the parable teaches is foreign.

From your quote:



Is there anything similar to this ^^ that reflects a connection to Judaism? If not, the parable of cursing the fig tree is a feature of a different/new religion.

Seeking God is in Judaism.

Jeremiah 29:13

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

 

[Skywalker]

Not comparable unless Moses claimed others could do the same thing.

There was no reason for others to do the same thing. God dealt with Israel differently than he deals with people in the age of grace. There is no New Testament equivalent so someone being barred from the promised land because of their impatience. Nehushtan - Wikipedia

In the biblical Books of Kings (2 Kings 18:4; written c. 550 BC), the Nehushtan(Hebrew: נחשתן‎ Nəḥuštān [nəħuʃtaːn]) is the derogatory name given to the bronze serpent on a pole first described in the Book of Numbers which God told Moses to erect so that the Israelites who saw it would be protected from dying from the bites of the "fiery serpents", which God had sent to punish them for speaking against him and Moses (Numbers 21:4–9).

God disciplined both Moses and the Israelites. God is just and sometimes stern in the New Testament, but in different ways. God is the same yesterday today and forevermore.

 

[Skywalker]

Is there anything in Tanach that is similar in any way? Any? If not then it would be an element of a new religion.

From my pesepctive it looks like a magic trick. Unless there's something similar in Tanach, it's perfectly reasonable to consider cursing trees a foreign practice. A rigid definition of sorcery is not important.

Christianity was a sect of second temple Judaism but different beliefs about Jesus being the Messiah led to the division between early Christianity and Judaism. The followers of Jesus weren't against doing Jewish things but they didn't believe that following the Law of Moses saved a person. Jewish religious movements - Wikipedia

Prior to the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Jews of the Roman province of Judaea were divided into several movements, sometimes warring among themselves: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, and ultimately early Christians. Many historic sources such as Flavius Josephus, the New Testament and the recovered fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls, attest to the divisions among Jews at this time. Rabbinical writings from later periods, including the Talmud, further attest these ancient schisms.[15]

The main internal struggles during this era were between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, as well as the early Christians, and also the Essenes and Zealots. The Pharisees wanted to maintain the authority and traditions of classical Torah teachings and began the early teachings of the Mishna, maintaining the authority of the Sanhedrin, the supreme Jewish court. According to Josephus, the Sadducees differed from the Pharisees on a number of doctrinal grounds, notably rejecting ideas of life after death. They appear to have dominated the aristocracy and the temple, but their influence over the wider Jewish population was limited. The Essenes preached an ascetic way of life. The Zealots advocated armed rebellion against any foreign power such as Rome. All were at violent logger-heads with each other, leading to the confusion and disunity that ended with the destruction of the Second Temple and the sacking of Jerusalem by Rome. The Jewish Christians were the original Jewish followers of Jesus. The radical interpretation of Moses' Law by Jesus' disciples and their belief he is the Son of God, along with the development of the New Testament, ensured that Christianity and Judaism would become distinctively different religions.[15]

 

[Skywalker]

I think verses 9 and forward should be included in the determination whether or not a prophet is legitimate. That means no sorcery, witchcraft, divining, sooth saying, etc... No adopting the practices of the other nations...

Can we agree that the prophet described in verse 15 would not promote or engage in any of these things?

Jesus did not adopt the practices of Mithraism. Jesus Vs Mithra – Debunking The Alleged Parallels | Reasons for Jesus

The closest thing that Mithraism had to a “Last Supper” was the taking of staples (bread, water, wine and meat) by the Mithraic initiates, which was perhaps a celebration of the meal that Mithra had with the sun deity after slaying the bull. However, the meal of the initiates is usually seen as no more than a general fellowship meal of the sort that was practiced by groups all over the Roman world — from religious groups to funeral societies.

 

[Skywalker]

So where did the communion come from? From my research it's an occult practice.

Cursing a fig tree? What does that sound like to you?

There is evidence that Mithraism copied Christianity. Jesus Vs Mithra – Debunking The Alleged Parallels | Reasons for Jesus

Critics try to give the rite some ancestry by claiming that it derives from an Iranian Mithraic ceremony using a psychadelic plant called Haoma, but they are clearly grasping at straws and adding speculations of meaning in order to make this rite seem similar to the Eucharist.

This piece of “evidence” is far, far too late to be useful — except as possible proof that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity! (Christianity of course was in Persia far earlier than this medieval text; see Martin Palmer’s Jesus Sutras for details.)

 

[Skywalker]

Cursing the fig tree sounds like sorcery to me.

Also, indwelling... it's a form of spirit possession. It's practiced in daoism.

The cursing of the fig tree had an order and a purpose. It wasn't sorcery. Why did Jesus curse the fig tree? | GotQuestions.org

As to the significance of this passage and what it means, the answer to that is again found in the chronological setting and in understanding how a fig tree is often used symbolically to represent Israel in the Scriptures. First of all, chronologically, Jesus had just arrived at Jerusalem amid great fanfare and great expectations, but then proceeds to cleanse the Temple and curse the barren fig tree. Both had significance as to the spiritual condition of Israel. With His cleansing of the Temple and His criticism of the worship that was going on there (Matthew 21:13; Mark 11:17), Jesus was effectively denouncing Israel’s worship of God. With the cursing of the fig tree, He was symbolically denouncing Israel as a nation and, in a sense, even denouncing unfruitful “Christians” (that is, people who profess to be Christian but have no evidence of a relationship with Christ).

 

[dybmh]

@Skywalker,

If I understand, your position is that the fig tree represented unrepentant Israel, and the parable/lesson of cursing the fig tree teaches that God curses the unrepentant?

If that's correct, what's the parable/lesson taught when Jesus tells others that they can curse a fig tree in the same manner?

 

[Skywalker]

@Skywalker,

If I understand, your position is that the fig tree represented unrepentent Israel, and the parable/lesson of cursing the fig tree teaches that God curses the unrepentent?

If that's correct, what's the parable/lesson taught when Jesus tells others that they can curse a fig tree in the same manner?

It wasn't to mock anyone, it was an object lesson about unfruitfulness. Why Did Jesus "Curse" the Fig Tree?

The Curse
The term “cursed” is used only once in the two New Testament records of this incident. On the second day, as Christ and his disciples passed by the tree, on their way to Jerusalem, it was noticed that the fig tree was completely dead.

This compelled Peter, who was speaking on behalf of the others as well (cf. Mt. 21:20), to comment: “Rabbi, look! The fig tree which you cursed has withered.” (v. 21).

It should be noted first that the term “curse” is not used in biblical parlance in the modern sense of profanity. Rather, a curse was a pronouncement of judgment upon a person or object (cf. Mt. 25:41).

In this case, there was a command miracle by which Christ spoke words that would cause this tree to die.

Christ’s action was not a purposeless act of intemperance. It represented a strong object-lesson that the disciples needed to learn (and numerous others since that time as well).

 

[dybmh]

it was an object lesson about unfruitfulness....

...there was a command miracle by which Christ spoke words that would cause this tree to die.

Christ’s action was not a purposeless act of intemperance. It represented a strong object-lesson that the disciples needed to learn (and numerous others since that time as well).

This commentary ignores that Jesus claimed others could perform the same "command miracle".