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Featured How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ayin, Dec 29, 2020.

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  1. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The suffering servant is not Israel personified because while Israel is described as a servant, there are verses that describe the servant as distinct from Israel. Who Is The Suffering Servant? Israel Or Jesus?

     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Maybe check this out: Who is God's Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53 | Outreach Judaism

    As a Christian, which I also am, one should be willing to admit that your interpretation is clearly not correct for a variety of reasons, but even with this being the case Jesus still can be believed in as a Messiah. Therefore, in no way does this diminish Jesus, what he was and still is, nor lessen the importance of what he taught.

    Isaiah clearly is about the Babylonian exile and the return to Israel, and we know this because of names and places, some that changed names over the centuries, plus how the Law [the 613 Commandments] are integral to the text, which rather clearly does not and cannot apply to Christianity. Probably most Catholic and mainline Protestant theologians know this because of their rather intense training in both Jewish and Christian theology, but I have found many fundamentalist Protestant theologians not being as well theologically astute, and this includes the church I grew up in btw, or they feel they have to spout the "company line" or possibly lose their jobs. Tolerance of opinions is not a fundamentalist virtue, let me tell ya.

    Anyhow, ...
     
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  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    How is Israel itself a light to the nations? Who Is The Suffering Servant? Israel Or Jesus?

     
  4. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was the prophet like unto Moses, because even though Jesus is first and foremost God and not a prophet, Jesus also has the threefold office of prophet, priest, and king. WHO IS THE PROPHET OF DEUTERONOMY 18:18 ?

     
  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It was the first to have a permanent belief in the belief in One God. It was the first country to create a compassionate system whereas all people in need living there would be helped-- not just some. It is the parent of both Christianity and Islam.
     
  6. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Israel became a light to the nations through Jesus being sent.
     
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    They already are:
    Psalms137[5-6] If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
    let my right hand wither!
    [6] Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth,
    if I do not remember you,
    if I do not set Jerusalem
    above my highest joy!

    And "replacement theology" not only defies what's repeatedly stated in the Tanakh, it also has been the main source of so much persecution of the Jews over the centuries.
     
  8. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Jews having their own separate covenant with God is not mentioned in the Bible.
     
  9. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Since you paid close attention to Deuteronomy 18:20-22 - tell me what he prophesied that has proven to be false?
     
  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    You actually have a few problems here.

    First, I could go all crazy posting links to discussions of false predictions, like this site, and this one. I could also point out that verse 20 requires that God commands the person to utter statements and this fails on 2 accounts, one that Judaism rejects the notion that God spoke to Jesus, and second, since Jesus made pronouncements that go against what God has already commanded, and God is not changeable, those statements could NOT have come from God.

    But it is easiest just to point out that Jesus wasn't a prophet at all because according to the Pharisees (whose ideas Jesus cribbed, and whose authority, at least in terms of teaching, he endorsed) taught that the era of prophecy had ended some 300 years prior, making any claim to his being a prophet, on its face, false.

    Hope that helps.
     
    #1530 rosends, Feb 10, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  11. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    NO proof of anything he said that was wrong!

    He prophesied of the destruction of Jerusalem. Fulfilled around 70 AD
     
  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Maybe it's not the best example, but, has anyone been able to curse a fig tree as described in the Christian bible?
     
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  13. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    It's not an example at all of a prophecy that wasn't fulfilled. At best it is just you saying you don't believe it.

    That would be like me asking if anyone has ever seen an axe head float as mentioned in the old testament.
     
    #1533 TrueBeliever37, Feb 10, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I know, but, it is an example of something Jesus is quoted as saying which seems to be false.

    It can't be compared to stories in the old testament, because, those stories don't claim that ordinary people can subvert the laws of nature.
     
  15. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Really - Read 2 Kings 6:5-7 - Isn't it against the laws of nature for an axe head to float?
     
  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I don't think those are comparable, tbh.

    In Kings, it describes a singular one time event. In Matthew it describes an event which can be repeated.

    It's an example of something that Jesus is quoted as saying, which seems false. It undermines the rest of the story.
     
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  17. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    "I think they are a pain, sometimes. Usually they are just fine, but sometimes they get in the way. Also the sap can cause your skin to have a reaction. Don't touch the sap."

    But that is perhaps not what you are asking.
     
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  18. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Bogus - just admit the axe head thing was against the laws of nature. He only did it once in Matthew also. So what does that prove?

    Anyway you haven't come up with anything you can prove false.
     
  19. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    The two stories are not comaprable inless the verses in Kings say that anyone can perform the miracle.
    Can we agree that Jesus added to the law?

    John 6:52-59

    What's prescribed here is not anywhere in the old testament. It's new law.
     
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  20. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    How was it in the tanach that people attained to eternal life (not sure how much of a concept that is in Judaism) or at least being right with God? Sacrifices were part of that, and I believe Yeshua was foreshadowed in the pesach lamb. And also, I wonder, how do you think mankind well be reconciled to God and return to a pre-fallen state, as in the garden of Eden?
     
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