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Featured How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ayin, Dec 29, 2020.

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  1. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    The final galut: Galut Thread.
     
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  2. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The law does not override the need for the Messiah. The Old Covenant was given to Israel to set them apart from other nations.
     
  3. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    You don't need a messiah to keep Torah.
     
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  4. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    One of the purposes of the Messiah was to teach us how to live. That's why Isaiah called him the wonderful counselor. I'm not saying Jesus being a teacher made him the Messiah, but him being a teacher doesn't override it. The two roles are not mutually exclusive. It's like how Jesus was called prophet, priest, and king.
     
  5. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    How does the Torah override the need for a Messiah?
     
  6. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    By misunderstanding what the Messiah was really supposed to do. When they put their own meanings on the xyz that he was supposed to accomplish. If they are incorrect on what God intended the xyz to be, then they think he failed.
     
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Why are you assuming there's a supposed need for a "Messiah", unless one uses the term broadly?
     
  8. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Old Testament talks about a Savior. How Did the Samaritan Woman Know About the Messiah?

     
  9. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Messiah didn't come so that we could keep Torah but so that we could come before God with a mediator.
     
  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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  11. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Jews believe that they needed a Savior before Jesus came. The Messiah was to be someone who would die for their sins and the sins of the world. Isaiah 53:6

     
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  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Except that Isaiah has nothing directly to do with Jesus as it's focus in on returning back to eretz Israel from the Babylonian exile, plus also the need of following the Law-- all 613 of them: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

    OTOH, Jesus can be viewed as being a messiah through using a spiritual approach.
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The book of Isaiah isn't just about Israel and Babylonian captivity. The Astonishing Servant of Jehovah

     
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Which is identified by Isaiah NUMEROUS times as Israel.
     
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    That's a Christian "take" on Isaiah that true Biblical scholars well know is a sort of "reworking" of the text. For example, in "Jerome's Bible Commentary", it notes that Isaiah isn't referring to Jesus but that it sorta "prefigures" [the term the authors use] Jesus, but not in any direct manner.

    Even though the Jewish and Christian scriptures are "linear" when it comes to time and events, there's often "circular" references used that make associations with previous events and certain figures as if there's a direct connection. Jesus, for example, is sometimes compared to Adam and Moses, and the Gospel writers often do this, thus the narratives are not to be taken literally but figuratively, and this would be understood by a discerning reader.
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Exactly, and which makes much more sense in that the reason Israel was being punished was because of being careless in regards to the Law, thus being punished through exile, and then at the end of Isaiah there's the demand by haShem that they must obey the Law-- or else.

    Obviously, that pattern cannot literally be applied to Jesus, but that by using a more circular pattern the issue of "salvation" can take on a meaning that's not literally the same as what Isaiah was referring to, but a parallel could be drawn dealing with "salvation" in a spiritual sense.

    I'm sorta stumbling over words above, so does any of that make sense to you?
     
  17. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Deuteronomy 18:15-19 - You were supposed to listen to him when he came.

    Question: How can you keep Torah when there are commands that would require a temple?
     
  18. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Suffering Servant is described as one who would offer his life as an atoning for sins. Is Jesus God’s Servant or Son? Pt. 4

     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The Suffering Servant is Israel personified, thus having no direct connection to Jesus.

    Again, serious theologians know this, but Pastor Joe may not.

    Reminds me of something Billy Graham once wrote, namely that the Christian message is simple enough that even one dull-of-mind can understand but complicated enough to turn theologians' hair grey.
     
    #1519 metis, Feb 9, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The Torah has many laws. If I don't own a car, I can follow American law even though I'm not buckling my seatbelt. I can keep the Torah by following the laws that apply to me based on who and where (and when) I am. And we continue reading and pay close attention to Deut 18:20-22.
     
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