How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[rosends]

So let's discount them - in which case these no argument whether Jesus is the Messiah
because the Gospels are fiction.

exactly!

 

[Tumah]

Knowing how to distinguish the Messiah is clearly a problem.

Micah 5:2. 'But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.'

Do you not believe this prophecy of Micah? It's not a New Testament passage.

Yet you do believe that Jesse lived in Bethlehem [1 Samuel 16:1], and that his family are associated with the city. Birth in this city gives credence to the Messianic claim.

No it doesn't. The verse from Micah is referring to Jesse as the progenitor of the Messiah having come from there.

 

[Tumah]

You can't have it both ways. The Jews accused Jesus of being fake because he was
a Galilean. And they cited scripture to the effect that the Messiah must come from
Bethlehem.

That narrative tells you more about what the authors of the Christian Testament believed, then what regular Jews believe.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay all Torah based Jews on RF, we have

I once heard that the Raelian prophet Rael visited a Rabbi and said, "If Moses came back to life would you follow Moses or continue to follow the Torah?" He said, "I would continue to follow the Torah." Perhaps that is what's going on here.

Christian belief is that they are supposed to try to get Jews back to Christianity. I'm sorry for saying so but it's the most important thing in my entire church. I am only allowed to do so much on RF.

Concerning your story about Moses coming back to life. This is a bit of a silly question to ask a any Torab based Jew for one simple reason. We Jews follow what Hashem stated. Hashem gave the Torah to the Jewish nationa publically in a mass revelation. Moses transmitted the correct understanding and application of the Torah for Israelis/Jews to follow. Thus, what Moses said and did was subject to the will of Hashem, which the Torah was dictated to Moses. So, Moses could not contradict what the Source of creation gave him.

Further, the Torah of Hashem is clear that we Israelis/Jews don't need someone to come from the sky, from the dead, or from the across the sea to know what the Torah means and how to do it. Since Moses is the one who transmitted that concept, from Hashem, to the people of Israel it would be silly that Moses would come back from the dead and 1) contradict what Hashem told him to say and 2) what he himself taught. The even sillier part of the question is that Moses did not/does not have the power to bring himself back from the dead. So, if someone came around claiming to be a ressurected Moses we Jews would know that that Hashem warned us about people who would lie about something like that. In fact, as a side note I live in Jerusalem, Israel and there are VARIOUS people who walk around the old city claiming to resurrected Moses and even there are some Christians who walk around claiming to be a resurrected Jesus. I don't see Christians running out to check every person claiming to be a resurrected Jesus, so obviously they also have standards.

In terms of the Christian belief is that they are supposed to try to get Jews into to Christianity. This is also a bit of a silly concept. We Jews already know that this is the goal that certain Christians have. Various Christians have been trying it for the last 1,700 years and it hasn't worked. We Torah based Jews have survived every attempt and we will continue to survive every attempt. You don't have to be sorry for the record, I respect the fact that you are honest about it, and I am happy Hashem has kept the Christian missionary success rate very low.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I cannot read those scrolls/books (although I do try to read the Torah in Hebrew daily), so I don't know what you're reporting to not meet the requirements of the Jews.

Here is a summary of what I am reporting doesn't meet the requirements that Hashem gave to Am Yisrael/Jews.

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity

 

[Ehav4Ever]

No, just tell it what it is saying.

It's the entire Torah in Hebrew. I.e. the entire Hebrew text of the Torah that Hashem gave warns Jews to stay away from the concepts found in the New Testament. Are you sure you don't want me to prove that the Torah based Jews on RF can read it? it would be that hard to prove.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Knowing how to distinguish the Messiah is clearly a problem.

Actually, that is not true. The HEBREW text makes it clear how one knows who is who.

For example, the word messiah for Christians means something different than the word (משיח) means for Jews. Thus, Christians confuse themselves when they think we Jews are looking for someone when the Hebrew Tanakh is clear that we Jews won't be looking for anyone. No different than the generation that was taken out of Egypt didn't have to look for Mosheh - especially when one considers what Hashem stated the sign would be.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

How is this possible?

This may also help.

 

[Audie]

The Bible verse about Jesus having a long life is a reference to the resurrection. There are verses in the Tanakh where things are plainly implied but not explicitly stated. How could the Messiah have died and yet prolonged his days? I believe Isaiah 53:10 refers to the servant's continued activities after his death.

Audie tiresomely points out that this is why predictionss "cone true".

 

[Redemptionsong]

And you believe that this means that any future messianic person has to be born in Bethlehem? Maybe the problem is in clearly understanding the verse and prophecy. This verse remarks about the family that came from Bethlehem and how from that family a future leader will arise. That family is the origin of the Davidic line which would exclude anyone not (paternally) from the family.

The first thing to accept is that prophecy points us to the Holy One of God.

'Out of thee shall he come forth', are the words used in the KJV, but maybe you have a completely different reading?

Yes, I believe that the Messiah born on earth of the line of David must be born in Bethlehem. It's consistent with all the Davidic parallels used of the Messiah.

The genealogy of Jesus Christ gives a paternal line from David.

 

[Redemptionsong]

No it doesn't. The verse from Micah is referring to Jesse as the progenitor of the Messiah having come from there.

That's not what it says.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Actually, that is not true. The HEBREW text makes it clear how one knows who is who.

For example, the word messiah for Christians means something different than the word (משיח) means for Jews. Thus, Christians confuse themselves when they think we Jews are looking for someone when the Hebrew Tanakh is clear that we Jews won't be looking for anyone. No different than the generation that was taken out of Egypt didn't have to look for Mosheh - especially when one considers what Hashem stated the sign would be.

View attachment 46505

Are you disagreeing with the statement that the Messiah will be a man born on earth?

 

[rosends]

The first thing to accept is that prophecy points us to the Holy One of God.

'Out of thee shall he come forth', are the words used in the KJV, but maybe you have a completely different reading?

Yes, I believe that the Messiah born on earth of the line of David must be born in Bethlehem. It's consistent with all the Davidic parallels used of the Messiah.

The genealogy of Jesus Christ gives a paternal line from David.

So if you understand the prophecy incorrectly, the rest flows from that.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The genealogy of Jesus Christ gives a paternal line from David.

Quick question. Which geneology is the paternal line? Matthew or Luke?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Are you disagreeing with the statement that the Messiah will be a man born on earth?

I am saying that the word "messiah" and also how the NT interprets that word are wrong. The closest thing to the English word "messiah" in Hebrew is the word (מושיע) but that word, in Hebrew, doesn't mean what (Μεσσίας) means in Greek. Also, the Hebrew word (משיח) doesn't equate to the Greek word (Μεσσίας).

 

[Redemptionsong]

Actually, that is not true. The HEBREW text makes it clear how one knows who is who.

For example, the word messiah for Christians means something different than the word (משיח) means for Jews. Thus, Christians confuse themselves when they think we Jews are looking for someone when the Hebrew Tanakh is clear that we Jews won't be looking for anyone. No different than the generation that was taken out of Egypt didn't have to look for Mosheh - especially when one considers what Hashem stated the sign would be.

View attachment 46505

Your reference to Moses is an interesting comparison. Scripture tells us where and when Moses was born. It also tells us about his return to save the Israelites from slavery. He didn't return to Egypt from another part of Egypt but from Mount Sinai, the mountain of God.

You may not see him coming until the last moment, but you will recognise him! [Zechariah 12:9,10]

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Are you disagreeing with the statement that the Messiah will be a man born on earth?

This may also help you.

 

[Left Coast]

It doesn't have to be a monarchy although I think that's the most likely. But it could just as well be a Prime Minister or other such national leader.

That's fascinating, so in Judaism the Messiah doesn't have to be a 'real' king either.

It's currently not possible, however, the Messiah isn't chosen because of his lineage. There could and probably are many people today carrying the right lineage. But if his lineage isn't the right one, then that would disqualify him. Again, not something we know about most people today.

Is there a way this knowledge would be restored in the future? How would that lineage ever be demonstrated about the future Messiah?

In Gen. 1:28. Since there's a commandment to have children and the Messiah is righteous, he would not absolve himself from this commandment.
Of course, it's possible that the Messiah would be impotent or his wife barren. But Isa. 35:5-6 describes the Messianic Age as a time when the ill and lame would be made whole again, so even if either of them were, they'd be healed.

So does this mean that a person cannot be righteous, in the Jewish view, unless they have kids?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Quick question. Which geneology is the paternal line? Matthew or Luke?

They have to be combined to produce a complete picture. Matthew provides Joseph's line, and Luke provides Mary's line. [Don't let Heli confuse the issue]

 

[Redemptionsong]

This may also help you.

I'd prefer to see your words.