1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ayin, Dec 29, 2020.

Tags:
  1. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,520
    Ratings:
    +329
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jesus told his disciples that they would receive power from the Holy Spirit. Jesus talked about the Holy Spirit and was seen with the Holy Spirit at his baptism.
     
  2. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,938
    Ratings:
    +4,777
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Not according to the NT.

    The Son of Man was due to establish the Kingdom on earth ─ unambiguously, in Mark, in Matthew and in Luke ─ during the lifetime of some of Jesus' hearers.

    Unless you know one or more two-thousand-year-old people who were in the audience when Jesus spoke, that part of things has long been, and is, a FAIL.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,520
    Ratings:
    +329
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jesus established his kingdom on earth in a spiritual sense, during the lifetime of the disciples and the people who followed Jesus.
     
  4. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,132
    Ratings:
    +1,017
    Religion:
    Christian
    You mean a lesser god? Hmm let us say that Jehovah is the Most High God. I don't know what that means to you, but Most High God indicates there are other gods. The fact that elohim is plural does not mean that Jehovah elohim is a trinity. Or that He is a compenium of gods.
    lol...you're killing yourself here. Either God is an angel or he is not an angel.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,132
    Ratings:
    +1,017
    Religion:
    Christian
    Let's say this: No matter how you slice it, it's not spelled YHWH or trinity or Lord or God. They're all different words.
     
  6. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,520
    Ratings:
    +329
    Religion:
    Christian
    What do you think is the nuance between YHWH and Jehovah?
     
  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,938
    Ratings:
    +4,777
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Well, a Christian movement was established, but it never flourished in Judea / Israel and it took a couple of centuries to get momentum amongst the pagans.

    But if that's a spiritual kingdom on earth, don't the Jews, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Zoroastrians, have spiritual kingdoms on earth too, ones that are centuries older?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,520
    Ratings:
    +329
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jesus is not a junior God. The Gospels are not like reading some fascinating fictional account of the most wonderful human being the human minds ever conceived, for that aren't fiction and the human minds didn't conceive Jesus. He conceived us. No fiction writer could invent such a character. The perfection and sublimity of Jesus Christ is beyond the capacity of the human intellect and imagination to construct.
     
  9. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,520
    Ratings:
    +329
    Religion:
    Christian
    There is no parallel between Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah and other people who people thought were the Messiah. Hindu Buddhist and Zoroastrian teachers didn't uphold the Old Testament; Jesus did.
     
  10. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,520
    Ratings:
    +329
    Religion:
    Christian
    That was an intermediate of the future kingdom that Jesus will establish over the earth, when he has dominion over kingdoms.
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,938
    Ratings:
    +4,777
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Where does the bible say that? I don't remember anything about a two-step process.

    Does your silence indicate you agree that there are many spiritual kingdoms on earth and that many are older than Christianity?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,520
    Ratings:
    +329
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe that Anything that doesn't involve seeking God and making God a part of your life is not the kingdom of God. A relationship with God is not about what God can do for you.
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,520
    Ratings:
    +329
    Religion:
    Christian
    Zechariah 14:4 mentions the Messiah reappearing on the Mount of Olives.
     
  14. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,938
    Ratings:
    +4,777
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    I made no comment regarding what God might or might not do for the seeker.

    But to be clear, seeking the Jewish god, the Hindu gods, the gods of the supernatural branch of Buddhism, the Light in Zoroastrianism, are all fine by you?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    Messages:
    1,451
    Ratings:
    +856
    Religion:
    Torath Mosheh
    So how did such a simple thing like how his name was written and pronounced turn into such a theological battle line? Doesn't the NT make it clear what his name was enough to where there shouldn't be any dabate about that?
     
  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,938
    Ratings:
    +4,777
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    I'm not sure where you got that Messiah from. My text says that's the Lord, which in the Tanakh means Yahweh, who stands on the Mount of Olives.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,520
    Ratings:
    +329
    Religion:
    Christian
    The New Testament keeps it simple. The name of Jesus is Yeshua not Yahshua.
     
  18. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,520
    Ratings:
    +329
    Religion:
    Christian
    Knowing God is making God a part of your life, not seeking what he can do for you. The Jewish doctrine of God ignores God being the Messiah and Hindu Buddhist and Zoroastrian Gods are not Gods of love who died to save all of their creation lost in sin.
     
  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,520
    Ratings:
    +329
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yahweh was Jesus, since Jesus is the only part of the plurality of the Trinity who became a man.
     
  20. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,938
    Ratings:
    +4,777
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    No, in the bible, Yahweh is God, and Jesus is not.

    Paul says the Father is God and Jesus is "Lord", a subordinate title. The Jesuses of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John each expressly deny that they're God, and never once claim to be God. For example ─

    Paul, I Corinthians 15:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

    Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; [...] 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he.

    Matthew 20:23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

    Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

    Luke 18:18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

    John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me ...

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

    John 20:17 J[...] go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

    And there are more where they came from.

    Jesus does not become God ie an element of the Trinity, until the 4th century CE, when the Trinity doctrine is proposed because of the demand of church members that Jesus be elevated to God status (despite his denials).
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
Loading...