1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ayin, Dec 29, 2020.

Tags:
  1. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,508
    Ratings:
    +329
    Religion:
    Christian
    Not all Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians believe are Hebrew Roots.
     
  2. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    Messages:
    1,451
    Ratings:
    +856
    Religion:
    Torath Mosheh
    What are the differences?
     
  3. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,720
    Ratings:
    +8,415
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    No. This is ridiculous.
    Jacob is Israel. They are the same.

    The context of Isaiah is talking about before the Messianic Age. This is a time where G-d's fury will be unleashed. From verse 20, we see that Israel will not be spared from His fury. However those who repent, will be spared from G-d's fury.

    The passage in Jeremiah is describing an event after this point. G-d is gathering Israel because Jacob has already been redeemed (v9-10). This makes sense because they're the same. We repented of the sins that sent us into exile and have been redeemed of the, so now G-d is gathering in the exiled.
    The passage continues. Everyone's happy. All the people already know G-d. There's no need for repentance any more, no one will be sinning. There's no need for a time where G-d's fury will be unleashed. So we can see that this is talking about the people who remained after G-d's fury was unleashed.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,523
    Ratings:
    +593
    Religion:
    None
    I can explain this to you. If you have the time we can go through the documents,
    verse by verse to give the scriptures context for these two groups.
     
  5. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2019
    Messages:
    6,061
    Ratings:
    +6,104
    Religion:
    Orthodox Judaism
    Jewish View of Christianity 101
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
  6. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,132
    Ratings:
    +1,016
    Religion:
    Christian
    Adam, of course, was not a Christian, but you might want to look at Luke 3:38.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,132
    Ratings:
    +1,016
    Religion:
    Christian
    Not as a godperson equal to the other two.
     
  8. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    Messages:
    1,451
    Ratings:
    +856
    Religion:
    Torath Mosheh
    Here in this thread or a new thread? Or some other means?
     
  9. ayin

    ayin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Ratings:
    +16
    Religion:
    Jewish
    God in His divine nature cannot die, but God in His human nature he could. YHWH became man, and as man he was crucified.
    Zech 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and supplication; and they will look upon me whom they have pierced, and they will mourn over him like the mourning over the only son, and bitterly grieve over him as one bitterly grieves over the firstborn.
     
    #909 ayin, Jan 4, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  10. ayin

    ayin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Ratings:
    +16
    Religion:
    Jewish
    The original name of the first letter is not Aleph but El, which means god or mighty one. This name is often used in the Bible for God Almighty.
     
  11. ayin

    ayin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Ratings:
    +16
    Religion:
    Jewish
    From Alef to Tav. If one writes all original letters of the alphabet in a line, then one recognizes that the ox(Alef) looks to the left, Hebrew is read from right to left, where does the ox finally arrive if he has run through all letters? At the cross(Tav). God(the ox) has arrived at the cross, and has finished his plan.
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2019
    Messages:
    6,061
    Ratings:
    +6,104
    Religion:
    Orthodox Judaism
    Wait...so now the Alef is also a cross? I'm confused. And god is a bull? How did that happen? Yet you folks deny being pagan. Can't get much more pagan than worshipping a bull...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. ayin

    ayin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Ratings:
    +16
    Religion:
    Jewish
    What about this, is Israel no longer Jacob because they are both separated from each other in a sentence?

    [Isa 14:1] For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, AND will yet choose Israel, and will appoint them to their land.
    [Gen 49:7] I will scatter them in Jacob AND disperse them in Israel.
    [Ps 105:23] And Israel came into Egypt, AND Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.
     
  14. ayin

    ayin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Ratings:
    +16
    Religion:
    Jewish
    Where did I say that Alef is a cross? Alef is the ox, not the cross.
    Seriously? Are you taking this literally? When David says, "God is my rock" do you take that literally too?
     
  15. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,303
    Ratings:
    +2,964
    Religion:
    Judaism
    You keep citing to a website that is antisemitic. Why is that?
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    6,360
    Ratings:
    +4,134
    Religion:
    Jewish
    So alef is an ox, but the actual letter's name is El which is God, so God is an ox. I thought we left all that bull in Egypt.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  17. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2019
    Messages:
    6,061
    Ratings:
    +6,104
    Religion:
    Orthodox Judaism
    Not you. It seemed that way from the graphic you brought.
    You seemed to be insinuating some sort of godly bull ramming into something. It's not quite like a stone/anchor metaphor.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. ayin

    ayin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Ratings:
    +16
    Religion:
    Jewish
    Yes, the original name of the first letter was El. Hebrew Alphabet Chart | AHRC

    In the Hebrew language, God is symbolic called an ox for its strength. Also because the ox was used as a sacrifice in the Tanakh God is called an ox for God is the final and ultimate sacrifice. He is the ox on the cross.
    God is of course not literally an ox. God is also called lion, leopard, bear, and rock in the Tanakh, but only symbolic and not literally.
     
  19. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    6,360
    Ratings:
    +4,134
    Religion:
    Jewish
    Oxen aren't on crosses. Goats are also sacrifices. None is ultimate.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. ayin

    ayin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Ratings:
    +16
    Religion:
    Jewish
    The ox on the right is the letter Aleph, the cross on the left is the letter Tav. In the middle you see God(the ox) hanging on the cross(Tav) as a sacrifice.
    YHWH said: I am the FIRST and the LAST, in other words: I am the ALEPH and TAV,
    I am the SACRIFICE on the CROSS.
    [​IMG]
    Of course, I don't believe that God is an ox, I see it methaphorically.
     
Loading...