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How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
The Bible verse about Jesus having a long life is a reference to the resurrection. There are verses in the Tanakh where things are plainly implied but not explicitly stated. How could the Messiah have died and yet prolonged his days? I believe Isaiah 53:10 refers to the servant's continued activities after his death.
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You took the words out of my mouth.
The issue is that the Jews explain away Isaiah 53 as referring to themselves,
not an individual. But read the context - doesn't make sense. And nowhere in
in Judaism would the death of some Jews redeem others.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
The Bible verse about Jesus having a long life is a reference to the resurrection. There are verses in the Tanakh where things are plainly implied but not explicitly stated. How could the Messiah have died and yet prolonged his days? I believe Isaiah 53:10 refers to the servant's continued activities after his death.
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What makes you think that was about Jesus? Read it in context, not just the single verse.
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
Verses 53:8 and 53:10 don't refer to someone's sons and daughters.
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What are you talking about?

Here are the verses with verse 9:

From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
What are you talking about?

Here are the verses with verse 9:

From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
Click to expand...

A plague befell them sounds like it could be a verse about Israel, but Israel wasn't a pacifist nation. During the Old Testament times they were a nation of human beings who lied like everyone else. How did Israel's soul make restitution?
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
The verse mentions the words "my servant" and "he" not a nation or they.
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I honestly feel like screaming whenever a Christian writes this.

Israel/Jacob is referred to in the singular hundreds of times. Israel is the servant. This is abundantly clear from the context.

Yeshayahu 49:3

And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
A plague befell them sounds like it could be a verse about Israel, but Israel wasn't a pacifist nation. During the Old Testament times they were a nation of human beings who lied like everyone else. How did Israel's soul make restitution?
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What has this to do with children and your prior point? I am so confused.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
I honestly feel like screaming whenever a Christian writes this.

Israel/Jacob is referred to in the singular hundreds of times. Israel is the servant. This is abundantly clear from the context.

Yeshayahu 49:3

And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."
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The expression servant isn't necessarily a reference to Israel, because there are verses in the Tanakh where Israel is referred to using feminine pronouns. What the Bible says about Israel as Woman
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
This is why context is a thing.
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There are also verses where Israel is referred to using male pronouns. Why is Israel referred to with a male pronoun in Jeremiah 31:10?

There is a lot of diversity for how the Tanakh talks about Israel, but the context of Isaiah 53 sounds like it's referring to the Messiah and not the nation of Israel. Israel was not despised and rejected by men. Israel was friendly with the pagan nations during the Old Testament times. A tender shoot and like a root out of dry ground sounds like references to Nazareth, not Israel itself, because of the humility of the places it's referring to.
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
I was talking about symbolic language. Children is often symbolic language. Who did Israel even symbolically make restitution to?
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This is not using symbolic language though.

And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

Having children, prolonging one's days and G-d's purpose prospering are all literal things that are meant to literally happen; I don't know why you think they wouldn't be. What is difficult or symbolic about these completely normal things?

If Israel repents and returns to G-d.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
This is not using symbolic language though.

And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

Having children, prolonging one's days and G-d's purpose prospering are all literal things that are meant to literally happen; I don't know why you think they wouldn't be. What is difficult or symbolic about these completely normal things?

If Israel repents and returns to G-d.
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Isaiah 53 mentioning Israel turning away from God supports John 1:11. "He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him."
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
Are you kidding me?

See: History of the Jews post Second Temple period even up to now.

Namely: Pogroms, exiles, massacres, libel, rape, torture and holocaust.
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Isaiah lived over seven centuries before Jesus. Jesus came just before the destruction of the second temple.
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
Isaiah lived over seven centuries before Jesus. Jesus came just before the destruction of the second temple.
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I don't care about Jesus. There are many prophecies in the Tanakh that simply haven't been fulfilled yet and some that have and still are being. You might want to turn the page and read Yeshayahu 54.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
I don't care about Jesus. There are many prophecies in the Tanakh that simply haven't been fulfilled yet and some that have and still are being. You might want to turn the page and read Yeshayahu 54.
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Doesn't that agree with the Christian belief of the Messiah fulfilling some of the prophecies at his second advent?
 
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