How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Skywalker]

Where in the Hebrew Tanakh, does it mention Hanuka and what is to be done on it?

Esther 9:26 mentions Purim.

 

[Skywalker]

I had to chuckle. They both lie and we should trust any of their beliefs about the messiah?

How could Israel be the suffering servant when they lied like the people of other nations? The one who dies for the sins of the world had to have been sinless. As sinners we can't make the payment of our own sin.

 

[ayin]

Writing yourself into the Jewish narrative. Disingenuous. By doing so, you deliberately blur the line between Jew and Gentile, thus attempting to erase actual descendants of Isaac from the world.

I am not a fleshly descendant of Isaac, but I am a spiritual descendant. Isaac is my father, and so I am a Jew. I live on Mount Zion, I have accepted the grace of Jesus and I see Sarah as my mother, I believe that Jesus is YHWH incarnate, that he died on the cross and was resurrected after three days. I am a Jew and I am an Israel.

 

[Skywalker]

It’s like Lady Liberty or Uncle Sam with the US.

Israel is described as a servant but never as a suffering servant.

 

[Skywalker]

I am not a fleshly descendant of Isaac, but I am a spiritual descendant. Isaac is my father, and so I am a Jew. I live on Mount Zion, I have accepted the grace of Jesus and I see Sarah as my mother, I believe that Jesus is YHWH incarnate, that he died on the cross and was resurrected after three days. I am a Jew and I am an Israel.

Do you believe in Hebrew Christianity or Messianic Judaism?

 

[ayin]

Do you believe in Hebrew Christianity or Messianic Judaism?

I believe in the bible, for I know it's the truth.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I can't believe this has gone on for 29 awful pages. Why would any Christian think Jews must accept Jesus? He clearly has not accomplished all that a messiah must. When he has done everything the messiah is supposed to do such that there is no longer a need for a messiah then that will be the time to ask 'How' they cannot consider him to be a messiah. Cart before horse. Please end this torturous nonsensical stuff.

 

[Skywalker]

I can't believe this has gone on for 29 awful pages. Why would any Christian think Jews must accept Jesus? He clearly has not accomplished all that a messiah must. When he has done everything the messiah is supposed to do such that there is no longer a need for a messiah then that will be the time to ask 'How'. Cart before horse. Please end this torturous nonsensical stuff.

The Tanakh doesn't say that Jesus will do abc and xyz at the same time. The reappearance of the Messiah contradicts that belief. The prophet Zechariah talked about the day of the Lord in Zechariah 14.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The Tanakh doesn't say that Jesus will do abc and xyz at the same time. The reappearance of the Messiah contradicts that belief. The prophet Zechariah talked about the day of the Lord in Zechariah 14.

Saying 'Tanakh' doesn't reduce the expectations of the messiah. Messiah is a big deal, particularly one that is supposed to transform the world to the point that its like heaven on Earth -- that which Christians are expected to pray for. Jesus is the messiah only in faith, and (Jewish people) those who are tasked with judging who is or isn't a messiah must do so not on the basis of faith but of fairness. If the task is not complete then they must necessarily determine he's not the messiah. It is not optional for them. They aren't allowed to just say "Well heck he's a nice guy. Lets call him the messiah." Don't say 'Tanakh' like its going to change this.

 

[ayin]

You are very good at tap dancing. How many books are in the canon that you accept and what are they?

The unadulterated and true Christian canon is the Protestant one, consisting of the Hebrew Tanakh and the 27 Greek Scriptures.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Do you think Messianic Judaism is legalism?

To be honest, I know little about Messianic Judaism. Thinking about it, it is possible that Apollos was a Messianic Jew. Apollos was a very well educated Jew from Alexandria, 'instructed in the way of the Lord' but 'knew only the baptism of John'. This means that he did not walk by the Holy Spirit, or by grace. Acts 18:27 tells us that Aquila and Priscilla 'expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly', which I understand to mean that they saw him baptized with the Holy Spirit.

I believe that to dwell in the spiritual body of Christ one must be born again of the Holy Spirit. Many Jews have received Christ in this manner, and become a part of Christ's one spiritual body.

Maybe there are different kinds of Messianic Jew. I cannot say!

Or some on RF will enlighten us!

 

[Brickjectivity]

The unadulterated and true Christian canon is the Protestant one, consisting of the Hebrew Tanakh and the 27 Greek Scriptures.

You refer, of course, to that canon in which Paul the Apostle states "Do not boast against the original branches." That one. Its the one in which Jesus tells the Jews that they are the salt of the Earth. That one. Its the canon in which James points out that we shouldn't go wagging our tongues, in particular not criticizing other people (Such as the Jews). That canon.

 

[Skywalker]

Saying 'Tanakh' doesn't reduce the expectations of the messiah. Messiah is a big deal, particularly one that is supposed to transform the world to the point that its like heaven on Earth -- that which Christians are expected to pray for. Jesus is the messiah only in faith, and (Jewish people) those who are tasked with judging who is or isn't a messiah must do so not on the basis of faith but of fairness. If the task is not complete then they must necessarily determine he's not the messiah. It is not optional for them. They aren't allowed to just say "Well heck he's a nice guy. Lets call him the messiah." Don't say 'Tanakh' like its going to change this.

Jesus gave peace on earth by giving inner peace. Jesus gave faith to over 2 billion people including ministries who do humanitarian work and he changed the lives of terrorists who became Christians.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Jesus gave peace on earth by giving inner peace. Jesus gave faith to over 2 billion people including ministries who do humanitarian work and he changed the lives of terrorists who became Christians.

Don't speak ignorantly and expect others to make up the slack. He didn't give peace on Earth. Its a violent place whether you consider Earth to be Israel or the globe or wherever, and the human heart continues also to be violent. I've seen Buddhist monks with more inner peace than most Christians today.

All I'm saying stop hammering at the Jewish religionists for not accepting Jesus. They're doing exactly what they are expected to do, what is required.

 

[Skywalker]

Don't speak ignorantly and expect others to make up the slack. He didn't give peace on Earth. Its a violent place whether you consider Earth to be Israel or the globe or wherever, and the human heart continues also to be violent. I've seen Buddhist monks with more inner peace than most Christians today.

All I'm saying stop hammering at the Jewish religionists for not accepting Jesus. They're doing exactly what they are expected to do, what is required.

What about Daniel 7:13?

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The one coming with the clouds of heaven was to be the Son of Man. He came to the ancient days implies a close connection with God. Jesus prayed to the Father. Even Moses couldn't see God the Father.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Paul's claim that his followers should be unmarried like him also makes him extremely suspect.

I'd like to pick up on this point, which I failed to respond to earlier.

Paul considered himself an apostle of Christ, called to share the Gospel with Jew and Gentile. A married life would not have suited such a missionary, given the constant need to travel. In 1 Corinthians 7, Paul gives advice to those that are Christian;
'I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.'

I noticed that Jesus was also criticised, on this thread, as being an unmarried man. This is actually a different matter altogether. Jesus Christ is to be married. He is to be married to the Church, his true bride, at his coming again.

So I guess you could turn this around and say that unmarried women who give themselves in service to Christ will end up at the marriage feast with their groom.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What about Daniel 7:13?

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The one coming with the clouds of heaven was to be the Son of Man. He came to the ancient days implies a close connection with God. Jesus prayed to the Father. Even Moses couldn't see God the Father.

Coming with the clouds...strikes my memory:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones'" (Jude 1:14) This is a cryptic little gem from Jude the shortest book in the canon. So, here we have Jude commenting upon the same event as you this "Coming with the clouds of heaven," and I warn you may have trespassed into the errors that Jude is talking about by criticizing the Jews who don't accept Jesus or your claims about him at least. You have criticized the Jews. What would Jude say about it? He writes "9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!' 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct--as irrational animals do--will destroy them. ..." Jude 1:9-10 I see this born out in the History of the churches, too; because sometimes Christians go after the Jews to criticize them for not converting. All this does is reverberate back and destroy those doing the accusing and the posturing. It may feel good for a moment, but in the end it makes us both red-faced and red-bottomed.

Apply the advice of Gamaliel (in Acts 5:34-38) to your own judgement against the Jews. Why are there still Jews? If they weren't from God then how could that be possible? If they have no role to play, and if they are not legitimate then they should have faded by now. This is the argument Christians use to justify our own existence, so it is fair and reasonable to use it in the other direction.

 

[Skywalker]

Coming with the clouds...strikes my memory:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones'" (Jude 1:14) This is a cryptic little gem from Jude the shortest book in the canon. So, here we have Jude commenting upon the same event as you this "Coming with the clouds of heaven," and I warn you may have trespassed into the errors that Jude is talking about by criticizing the Jews who don't accept Jesus or your claims about him at least. You have criticized the Jews. What would Jude say about it? He writes "9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!' 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct--as irrational animals do--will destroy them. ..." Jude 1:9-10 I see this born out in the History of the churches, too; because sometimes Christians go after the Jews to criticize them for not converting. All this does is reverberate back and destroy those doing the accusing and the posturing. It may feel good for a moment, but in the end it makes us both red-faced and red-bottomed.

Apply the advice of Gamaliel (in Acts 5:34-38) to your own judgement against the Jews. Why are there still Jews? If they weren't from God then how could that be possible? If they have no role to play, and if they are not legitimate then they should have faded by now. This is the argument Christians use to justify our own existence, so it is fair and reasonable to use it in the other direction.

I'm not criticising the Jews I was saying why I believe Jesus is the one like the Son of Man coming on the clouds. The book of Jude says that the Lord is coming, not Michael the archangel.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I have no idea what this means. He called himself a Jew, that's wonerful. But no matter whether or not he happen to sin like other humans has no bearing on his ability to change Jewish concepts.

Except that's not what Joel 3:1 says. If he knew anything about Joel, he would understand WHEN what is spoken of will happen, under what conditions, to whom, and what it will mean.

None of it points to a "better" covenant.

This is a misunerstanding of so, so much and then a presentation of false doctrine under Jewish understanding. He wasn't very informed then.

See, that's a mistake. The law is eternal. Making up other stuff in books that have no vaue doesn't change that.

The law that is eternal is not broken or abolished; the eternal law is love. The Spirit of love completes all that is in the moral Law. That's what makes it better, and that's what makes it God's righteousness rather than man's righteousness. The unconditional love of God is the fulfilment of the law. You cannot know life in that kingdom of love, or kingdom of God, until you receive the Spirit of Christ.

Paul didn't say that the law was in any way wrong. But he did believe that it was necessary to have the law written on the heart. He also discovered that there was power in the Holy Spirit than did not exist in religion.

 

[rosends]

The law that is eternal is not broken or abolished; the eternal law is love. The Spirit of love completes all that is in the moral Law. That's what makes it better, and that's what makes it God's righteousness rather than man's righteousness. The unconditional love of God is the fulfilment of the law. You cannot know life in that kingdom of love, or kingdom of God, until you receive the Spirit of Christ.

Paul didn't say that the law was in any way wrong. But he did believe that it was necessary to have the law written on the heart. He also discovered that there was power in the Holy Spirit than did not exist in religion.

It is interesting -- the topic of this thread is "how can a Jew reject..." and you start with a statement which posits that "the eternal law is love." That makes the answer obvious. The Jew rejects the radical destruction of the entire system of Judaism that reduces everything into some platitude and replaces a comprehensive way of living and of life with an alien set of writings that hold no authority, peopled by characters who espouse foreign and unwelcome positions.