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How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It's not that it was hidden. It's that it's not really a legitimate interpretation.

Job didn't believe that the Messiah was a mere man. Job's Redeemer

Job’s Surge of Faith
First, the suffering sage longed to make a permanent declaration of his innocence (i.e., his current affliction is undeserved). Oh, that his protest might be written in a book; better yet, let it be carved in stone (the depressions of which would be filled with lead—real permanence!). Thus, when vindication eventually comes, his integrity would be established.

Then, Job expressed deep confidence relative to the existence of his Redeemer-God. “I know,” he declared, “that my Redeemer lives.” The Hebrew term denotes knowledge of a personal, experiential nature. In the original text, the emphatic position of the pronoun “I” indicates that Job had a settled conviction regarding his Redeemer (Smick 1988, 942).

The word “Redeemer” is of great significance. The term is go’el which, along with its derivatives, is found about 118 times in the Old Testament. The basic meaning of the word is “to do the part of a kinsman,” and thus “to redeem” one’s kin from difficulty or danger (Harris 1980, 144). The Redeemer could: avenge a slain kinsman (Numbers 35:19-27); marry a deceased relative’s childless widow (Ruth 4:10); purchase a loved one out of slavery (Leviticus 25:47-55); or buy back a kinsman’s property that had passed from the family (Leviticus 25:23-25). The word is also used of God, as one who vindicates and redeems his people (Isaiah 43:1-3).
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Abraham broke with the faith of his father. Abraham's father, when he was Abram, was an idol worshiper. Jewish scriptures tell us that and rabbinic tradition expounds on that very richly. Abram broke with the faith of his father, because what his father believed at that time, was wrong. If you look at some of the major movements in Jewish history, those of you who think Hasidic Judaism is good and positive, that created such a terrible breach when it happened in the 1700s, that the greatest rabbinic authority of the day, the vilna gaon, excommunicated the Hasidic Jews. They broke with it, because they were convinced that some of the traditions or traditional expressions or way the things were carried out-it became legalistic.

The problem with this is that it is a Christian perspective, and not Hebrew. By the time NT was compiled and the NT included with the Christian interpretation by Roman and Greek Church Fathers there were very very few Christian Hebrews. It had become an Anglo-Saxon Roman Christinaity.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The problem with this is that it is a Christian perspective, and not Hebrew. By the time NT was compiled and the NT included with the Christian interpretation by Roman and Greek Church Fathers there were very very few Christian Hebrews. It had become an Anglo-Saxon Roman Christinaity.

I don't think God is looking for perfect people, but people who seek Him, and you also have to strive. You don't have to give up anything to seek God and strive. When you seek God and strive you naturally will want to do better and not be your own God. God loves people of all cultures and has no favorites. Revelation 7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I don't think God is looking for perfect people, but people who seek Him, and you also have to strive. You don't have to give up anything to seek God and strive. When you seek God and strive you naturally will want to do better and not be your own God. God loves people of all cultures and has no favorites. Revelation 7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands

OK, this is what you believe, but it does not address my post nor the issues at hand.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
OK, this is what you believe, but it does not address my post nor the issues at hand.

The different cultural ways that following Jesus is expressed are only relevant to people of that culture. Messianic Jews don't convert to Christianity they choose to follow their Messiah Yeshua.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The different cultural ways that following Jesus is expressed are only relevant to people of that culture. Messianic Jews don't convert to Christianity they choose to follow their Messiah Yeshua.

Which is a very later day conversion to Christianity. Regardless of how you translate nor much paint you use an elephant is still an elephant.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Which is a very later day conversion to Christianity. Regardless of how you translate nor much paint you use an elephant is still an elephant.

The first Christians were Jewish. They were more like Messianic Jews than any other denomination of Christianity. The first Christians didn't have a denomination.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The first Christians were Jewish. They were more like Messianic Jews than any other denomination of Christianity. The first Christians didn't have a denomination.

By ~400 AD there were very very few Hebrew Christians only in a few isolated communities. Rome was now totally in charge. Not all early Christians were Jewish. These are the facts.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
By ~400 AD there were very very few Hebrew Christians only in a few isolated communities. Rome was now totally in charge. Not all early Christians were Jewish. These are the facts.

Christianity started as a Jewish sect, but the laws of the Old Testament were not something that was relevant to the walk with God that the gentiles who believed in Jesus had. A person could follow Jesus and keep their Jewish traditions and the two go beautifully together but they do not save. We are saved by grace not by works. Judaizers - Wikipedia

Judaizers are Christians, both Jewish and non-Jewish, who teach that it is necessary for Christians to adopt Jewish laws and customs, especially those Jewish laws and customs which are prescribed in the Law of Moses
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Christianity started as a Jewish sect, but the laws of the Old Testament were not something that was relevant to the walk with God that the gentiles who believed in Jesus had. A person could follow Jesus and keep their Jewish traditions and the two go beautifully together but they do not save. We are saved by grace not by works. Judaizers - Wikipedia

Your response is demeaning to Judaism, and the problems still remain that you have not addressed. Judaism does not believe in salvation by ceremony nor works alone.

By ~400 AD there were very very few Hebrew Christians only in a few isolated communities. Rome was now totally in charge. Not all early Christians were Jewish. These are the facts.
 
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Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Your response is demeaning to Judaism, and the problems still remain that you have not addressed,

By ~400 AD there were very very few Hebrew Christians only in a few isolated communities. Rome was now totally in charge. Not all early Christians were Jewish. These are the facts.

Messianic Judaism and Christianity are not two separate religions. If we talk about Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians, is that to erect a wall of separation? Well, the first thing we want to do is have no wall of separation. Jesus tore that diving wall down and in Him, in Yeshua, we are one. And that's why Paul wrote to the Galatians and the Colossians, that there's neither Jew nor Greek, there's neither male nor female, there's neither slave nor free, but when he said that, he wasn't saying that there are no distinctions, certainly there's a difference between a man and a woman, There's also a difference between a Jew and a Gentile, but in Jesus, there's no caste system, there's no class system, we all have equal access to God. But Paul also wrote this to the Corinthians-in 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

When it comes to our salvation, circumcision doesn't count for anything, and uncircumcision doesn't count for anything. Being Jewish or being Gentile doesn't count for anything. However, Paul says if you come to faith as a Jew don't become a Gentile, if you come to faith as a Gentile, don't become a Jew.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Messianic Judaism and Christianity are not two separate religions.

If we talk about Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians, is that to erect a wall of separation? Well, the first thing we want to do is have no wall of separation. Jesus tore that diving wall down and in Him, in Yeshua, we are one. And that's why Paul wrote to the Galatians and the Colossians, that there's neither Jew nor Greek, there's neither male nor female, there's neither slave nor free, but when he said that, he wasn't saying that there are no distinctions, certainly there's a difference between a man and a woman,

Of course not, they all consider themselves as Christians, as do the many diverse conflicting churches consider themselves Christians.

Judaism does not consider salvation by by ceremony nor works alone, nor does Christianity consider salvation by faith alone. Both Judaism and Christianity consider works as a product of their belief.

The problems I previously described have not been responded to,


There's also a difference between a Jew and a Gentile, but in Jesus, there's no caste system, there's no class system, we all have equal access to God. But Paul also wrote this to the Corinthians-in 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

When it comes to our salvation, circumcision doesn't count for anything, and uncircumcision doesn't count for anything. Being Jewish or being Gentile doesn't count for anything. However, Paul says if you come to faith as a Jew don't become a Gentile, if you come to faith as a Gentile, don't become a Jew.

In Judaism there is no caste system, but in Christianity caste systems abound, and racism.

In Judaism circumcision is only a ceremonial tradition as it is in many churches and has no meaning concerning salvation.
 
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Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Your response is demeaning to Judaism, and the problems still remain that you have not addressed. Judaism does not believe in salvation by ceremony nor works alone.

By ~400 AD there were very very few Hebrew Christians only in a few isolated communities. Rome was now totally in charge. Not all early Christians were Jewish. These are the facts.

What does most Christians not being Jewish have to do with whether Jesus fulfilled all the messianic prophecies? Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

Rejected by Israel.
Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
Isaiah 8:14, And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Psalm 118:22-23, The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Isaiah 28:16, Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation...

Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
I Corinthians 1:22-24, For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jew a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Read Jesus' parable of the householder from Matthew 21:33-46:

33. Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34. And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41. They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
See also the parable of the marriage feast found in Matthew 22:1-14.

There are Jews that believe in Jesus as Messiah. However, it is very clear that today, Israel, as a nation, has rejected Christ.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What does most Christians not being Jewish have to do with whether Jesus fulfilled all the messianic prophecies? Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

Christians not being Jewish is a matter of fact of belief in the Roman Anglo-Saxon not Hebrew interpretation of the Tanakh translated into Western languages. The walls are there regardless. It is not a significant issue whether you call Jesus Yeshua or Jesus Christ.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Christians not being Jewish is a matter of fact of belief in the Roman Anglo-Saxon not Hebrew interpretation of the Tanakh translated into Western languages. The walls are there regardless. It is not a significant issue whether you call Jesus Yeshua or Jesus Christ.

What difference does it make if the Old Testament has Hebrew or Roman Anglo Saxon interpretations? The translation doesn't mean that you have to follow a certain culture.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What difference does it make if the Old Testament has Hebrew or Roman Anglo Saxon interpretations? The translation doesn't mean that you have to follow a certain culture.

The New Testament reflects a translation of Western languages, punctuation and interpretation that do not remotely reflect the Hebrew language and understanding in the whole history of Judaism.

Words do not change the fact that Messianic Judaism is a minor sect of Christianity.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The New Testament reflects a translation of Western languages, punctuation and interpretation that do not remotely reflect the Hebrew language and understanding in the whole history of Judaism.

Words do not change the fact that Messianic Judaism is a minor sect of Christianity.

Why does everything have to be in one neat category? Are you saying it's a significant issue whether one is a Jew or a Christian? The term Messianic Judaism is a simpler term than saying Jewish Christian but I wouldn't object to that term being used. Being decently and in order means you dont word it like its two faiths because it sounds too complicated, but you don't go out of your way to practice it to avoid it looking like two different faiths. Jews who believe in Jesus can still celebrate Easter in the context of Passover and wouldn't argue if someone used the term Jewish Christian, but the term Messianic Jew is more commonly used, and some Messianic Jews say they haven't become Christians.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Why does everything have to be in one neat category? Are you saying it's a significant issue whether one is a Jew or a Christian? The term Messianic Judaism is a simpler term than saying Jewish Christian but I wouldn't object to that term being used. Being decently and in order means you dont word it like its two faiths because it sounds too complicated, but you don't go out of your way to practice it to avoid it looking like two different faiths. Jews who believe in Jesus can still celebrate Easter in the context of Passover and wouldn't argue if someone used the term Jewish Christian, but the term Messianic Jew is more commonly used, and some Messianic Jews say they haven't become Christians.

. . . because the line of belief between Judaism and Christianity is specific and clear, and based on sharply contrasting beliefs and interpretation of the Tanakh and the New Testament.
 
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