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How best to argue against creationists

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
After reading some of the stuff on here I am stirred to say something.
First off, I am a YOUNG EARTH creationist who does NOT believe in MACRO evolution. I believe in SMALL changes over time however. But I believe it is limited that change.

Very well. I shall accept this if you can tell me what mechanism exists to limit the change.

The examples you cite are merely variations within a Genesis 'kind' and do not produce new species (or kinds). If you examine the evidence, maize is still maize.
Variety within species is NOT evolution. If evolution were true, you would find millions of transitional forms between species. These missing links remain missing.

So you won't accept evolution until you see a dolphin hatch from a bird's egg? Or something along those lines?

You do realise that evolution predicts that such events can't possibly happen, yes?

If true, they are still flycatchers. They haven't changed into a new 'kind'. Again, it is simply adaptation within animal kinds.

Once again, you are asking for one species to give birth to a completely different species. And again, I will tell you that evolution says that this can't happen!

And as has been mentioned, you are shifting the goalposts. You asked for an example of speciation, and you got one. Several, actually. Now you say it doesn't count as speciation unless it it a different kind? If you aren't going to play by the rules, don't play at all.

And also, unless you want to actually define "kind", don't use it. Keep your vague undefined biblical stuff out of a discussion about science.
 

Noaidi

slow walker
Denial reinforces denial. Deny the denier and it's just more denial.

Seems to me that a useful strategy when presenting this argument is to find where the opposition agrees with you, i.e. does creationism agree with evolution at any point? Move forward from there having built the bridge between the two.

Ad hominem, poison the well, aggression and ridicule DO NOT build bridges.
I mean come on look at the thread title.
"how best to argue against creationists" - the starting point is to be against them, the starting point is a foundation that is by its very nature is an automatic "against them".

Seriously if anyone thinks that they can bring enlightenment to another by being against them, as a starting point, they simply do not understand and will instead reinforce a lack of enlightenment in that other.

I do not wonder how or why the thread has been derailed so easily.

Peacewise.
To be fair, though, a number of us have provided various references for creationists to consider.

If the title of the thread is 'how best to argue against creationists', then the answer, to me, seems to be to present them with an outline of what evolution is and back that up with examples.

I agree that ad hominems don't help. Education, not ridicule, is the best way to argue against creationists.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
After reading some of the stuff on here I am stirred to say something.
First off, I am a YOUNG EARTH creationist who does NOT believe in MACRO evolution. I believe in SMALL changes over time however. But I believe it is limited that change.

Anyway, I am PROUD to admit this belief. And I am NOT stupid, insane, or DAM DISHONEST for believing it either! I also am not FULLY ignorant, yes I admit I need to read MORE, but I have read A LOT. I am NOT WILLFULLY ignorant. That's just another NICE way of calling someone dishonest.

Now WHY do I believe what I do in this regard? Is it ONLY because the BIBLE STRONGLY IMPLIES a young earth and that no macro evolution takes place? Is this the ONLY reason I believe this? The answer is a resounding

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Get it? NOOOOOOOOOOOO! No! NO! NOO!

Sorry, but this is frustrating.

I ALSO believe this because I SINCERELY QUESTION the UNDERLYING ASSUMPTIONS BEHIND the scientific THEORIES of a old earth and old universe and macro evolution. I would do this EVEN IF I DID NOT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE!

Now do you all get it? You better hurry up and get it, because not every creationist is the same. Hurry up and get it because I am sick of it not being gotten.

Perhaps google geology or use wikipedia. You have much to learn friend.

As someone who works in the ground all day i can tell you thast the world is not young.
 

Krok

Active Member
rusra: Are you referring to Biologist John Alexander Moore? Where was this piece published? Can you help us find the original writing?
Can anyone unpack this potential quote mine for me?
Hi Autodidact, all I got on this particular quote mine was this:

To support its claim of the nonexistence of transitional fossils, Life states: This agrees with the extensive study made by the Geological Society of London and the Palaeontological Association of England. Professor of natural science John N. Moore reported on the results: "Some 120 scientists, all specialists, prepared 30 chapters in a monumental work of over 800 pages to present the fossil record for plants and animals divided into about 2,500 groups. . . . Each major form or kind of plant and animal is shown to have a separate and distinct history from all the other forms or kinds! Groups of both plants and animals appear suddenly in the fossil record. . . . Whales, bats, horses, primates, elephants, hares, squirrels, etc., all are as distinct at their first appearance as they are now. There is not a trace of a common ancestor, much less a link with any reptile, the supposed progenitor." Moore added: "No transitional forms have been found in the fossil record very probably because no transitional forms exist in fossil stage at all. Very likely, transitions between animal kinds and/or transitions between plant kinds have never occurred." (p. 65)
Note that this quote is not a statement made by the mentioned organizations but rather is an interpretation of their findings by Moore. Moore was a founding member of the Creation Research Society. One source for this quote was identified to be Should Evolution Be Taught? by Moore. Moore's ideas do not represent the scientific consensus and should not be presented as such.
Life similarly presents Moore as an expert in a chapter titled "Mutations--A Basis for Evolution?": The truth is as Professor John Moore declared: "Upon rigorous examination and analysis, any dogmatic assertion...that gene mutations are the raw material for any evolutionary process involving natural selection is an utterance of a myth." (p. 111)
I don't know what "Professor" Moore's qualifications are. Probably none. WikiAnswers and AiG state that he is a Science Educator. His qualifications are never mentioned. Definitely not a scientist and not qualified to comment on fossils anyway. Maybe he's got the same type of qualifications as "Dr" Kent Hovind?
 
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rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes, that's why I say if you really want to engage YECs, what you need is not so much debating skills as persistence. It is discouraging to vanquish some bulloney only to see it re-asserted again. For example, rusra has denied that new species come into existence. When shown that they do, he moved his goalposts to something undefined called a new "kind." Nevertheless, next time we see him post on the subject, I predict he will once again deny the existence of new species, despite having been given a list of them.

What's hilarious is that rusra actually believes that speciation is happening constantly and rapidly, at a rate never observed in nature. But his objections are really just rote reflex reactions, not actually logical objections.

But, as I say, as long as he emerges still believing his mythology, then in his book he's "won."

A flycatcher becomes a ... flycatcher and you assert a new species is born. A finch becomes a slightly larger finch or has a different beak, and lo and behold, we have a new species. The goal posts haven't moved. The assertions you made are unfounded and untrue. It is the ToE proponents who ignore the evidence and continue to propogate the myth that fish turn into birds and reptiles into mammals.
I speak to those searching for the truth to examine the evidence, and do not blindly accept the nonsensical 'science' ToE proponents try to bully us with.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Ah, I think rusra is not quote-mining, just repeating some creationist drivel by non-scientist creationist John N. Moore. rusra: Tell us about the important scientific work of John N. Moore. Where did he get his degree(s), and in what? What scientific work has he published? Or is he just another creationist liar and hack?

Ah, the evolutionist's refrain.. If you can't attack the truth, attack the truth sayer.
Anyone who doesn't believe in the ToE must be a liar, a knave, and a dolt. If you can't baffle them with lies, bully them with insults. Well played, sir.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Denial reinforces denial. Deny the denier and it's just more denial.

Seems to me that a useful strategy when presenting this argument is to find where the opposition agrees with you, i.e. does creationism agree with evolution at any point? Move forward from there having built the bridge between the two.

Ad hominem, poison the well, aggression and ridicule DO NOT build bridges.
I mean come on look at the thread title.
"how best to argue against creationists" - the starting point is to be against them, the starting point is a foundation that is by its very nature is an automatic "against them".

Seriously if anyone thinks that they can bring enlightenment to another by being against them, as a starting point, they simply do not understand and will instead reinforce a lack of enlightenment in that other.

I do not wonder how or why the thread has been derailed so easily.

I appreciate your post and it does present the methods used by ToE proponents, which is to bully and ridicule. The evidence for the ToE is lacking, and the evidence for Creation is overwhelming. The only method left is to try to overwhelm the facts with bluster and bullying. Unfortunately, for most scientists the tactics work in silencing debate over the ToE.
 

Krok

Active Member
Ah, the evolutionist's refrain.. If you can't attack the truth, attack the truth sayer.
Anyone who doesn't believe in the ToE must be a liar, a knave, and a dolt. If you can't baffle them with lies, bully them with insults. Well played, sir.
Because it is true. Look for example at the quote mine in the post above. You quoted someone who pretends to be a scientist, while he is not. Liars, all of them.
 
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Noaidi

slow walker
To address the thread topic:

Creationists often claim that they are looking at the same evidence as a biologist or a geologist- the difference is in the interpretation. We need the creationists to lay out their hypotheses, methodology and show the results of their investigations. After all, scientists have to go through the peer-review process before they are published and their results accepted. Creationist research shouldn't be exempt from this if we are to keep the playing field level.

Are there any creationist journals out there that can provide us with such an approach to their work?
 

RedOne77

Active Member
A flycatcher becomes a ... flycatcher and you assert a new species is born. A finch becomes a slightly larger finch or has a different beak, and lo and behold, we have a new species. The goal posts haven't moved.

Indeed the goal post has been moved, actually. A species, by definition, is a population that doesn't/can't interbreed with any other population. 'Creationists' have been accepting speciation for literally over 300 years, please get with the program. When we show you speciation you say it isn't because they are the same "kind". That, is moving the goal post, the two words aren't interchangeable in science as there is no scientific word "kind". However, if you can define kind we can use it in science and see if such ideas have any scientific weight.

The assertions you made are unfounded and untrue. It is the ToE proponents who ignore the evidence and continue to propogate the myth that fish turn into birds and reptiles into mammals.

Well, at least you got the reptiles into mammals right. But what is this evidence that we ignore?

I speak to those searching for the truth to examine the evidence, and do not blindly accept the nonsensical 'science' ToE proponents try to bully us with.

You don't have to blindly accept it, you can learn about it, but first you have to be willing to learn about it with an open and honest mind. And be willing to admit, at least to yourself, that sometimes your presumptions about evolution and science are wrong when they are shown to be wrong.
 

David M

Well-Known Member
You state that "evolution is an observed fact, populations evolve and that is a fact."
The evidence is to the contrary. Species change and adapt, but a cow is always a cow, a dog is a dog, a cat is a cat, and yes, Darwin's finches are always finches. You cannot successfully breed between 'kinds'. Give one proven example of where one species evolved into another.

Cow is not a species, in fact none of the examples you give are species. The word "kind" has no definition when it comes to classifying species into groups. All that can definitely be taken from the bible on the subject is that it confirms the simple observation that parents give birth to offspring that are very similar to them.

Observed Speciation Events:
Speciation By Hybridisation In Heliconius Butterflies by Jesús Mavárez, Camilo A. Salazar, Eldredge Bermingham, Christian Salcedo, Chris D. Jiggins and Mauricio Linares, Nature, 441: 868-871 (15th June 2006) [Full paper downloadable from here]

Mavárez et al, 2006:Speciation is generally regarded to result from the splitting of a single lineage. An alternative is hybrid speciation, considered to be extremely rare, in which two distinct lineages contribute genes to a daughter species. Here we show that a hybrid trait in an animal species can directly cause reproductive isolation. The butterfly species Heliconius heurippa is known to have an intermediate morphology and a hybrid genome1, and we have recreated its intermediate wing colour and pattern through laboratory crosses between H. melpomene, H. cydno and their F1 hybrids. We then used mate preference experiments to show that the phenotype of H. heurippa reproductively isolates it from both parental species. There is strong assortative mating between all three species, and in H. heurippa the wing pattern and colour elements derived from H. melpomene and H. cydno are both critical for mate recognition by males.
There is an example of a species that evolved into another in the wild and said event was duplicated in a lab.

You should note that evolution demonstrates that species do evolve into species that retain the same classification as the ancestor, mammals always evolve into mammals, chordates always evolve into chordates. However the morphology can change radically over time so that eventually a descendant species can look radically different to its ancestral species.

You are the one who needs to identify the barrier that prevents the accumulation of small changes eventually leading to large differences between species and their ancestors who were around millions of years before.

The fossil record shows sudden appearance of complete life in great variety and no linking forms. Evolution predicts the contrary. The facts support creation.

This "fact" of yours is a lie or based on ignorance of the fossil record. Nowhere in the fossil record is there an event that shows the sudden appearance of complete life in great variety and no linking forms unless your definition of sudden encompasses periods greater than 130 million years, thats twice the time since the extinction of the dinosaurs.

Even the so called "Cambrian Explosion", which took place over more than 20 million years, contains species whose ancestors appear in the fossil record during the Ediacarian age and back to the Cryogenian where fossils of the first sponges appear. The analysis of the rare rock strata from these times is still ongoing and new species continue to be identified from the fossil record further linking these early life forms together.

You should also realise that the cambrian period contains absolutely no species that lived on land, every single one is marine.



'
So long as they have their faith nothing you show them about the fossil record, dating methods, etc, will change their position.

My understanding of the fossil record is that nothing has ever been found that is a mid species. Species evolving into a very different species is very different to natural selection which the bible does not disagree with. I won't mention the desperation of the scientist that made the fake cro magnon man.

Your understanding is completely wrong, just look at hominid evolution and the difficulty of classifying individuals that lie on the dividing lines between species. In fact if you bothered to look at the evidence from evironments that lend themselves to extensive fossilisation you can find very fine grained evidence of the evolution of species such as trilobites and other small marine creatures.

Here's a starting point for vertebrate transitional forms.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part1a.html

As you have been told already, Cro-Magnon man is not a fake, many fossils of these early Homo sapiens have been found. Piltdown Man was never claimed to be a cro-magnon and the fraud was exposed by scientists when they were allowed to closely examine the bones.

'The fact that although we have found all sorts of creatures of all sizes that predate man yet nothing of interspecies of man or anythiong else is....I'm afraid my friend...evidence on the side of creation.

If there was evidence of evolution it would not be called the THEORY of evolution. We don't have the theory of dinosuars.. and why..because there is proof.

Please post this evidence for evolution you speak of so all can debate!

The list of homind species has already been posted. Read the information.

Scientific theories explain evidence, for there to be a theory of evolution the evidence has to already exist. The mere idea that there would be a "theory of dinosuars" shows your gross lack of understanding of science. The ToE explains the fact that there were dinosaurs.
 
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Krok

Active Member
I appreciate your post and it does present the methods used by ToE proponents, which is to bully and ridicule.
If people keep on ignoring evidence and keep on making ridiculous statements, they need to be ridiculed. It might shock them out of their delusion.
The evidence for the ToE is lacking, and the evidence for Creation is overwhelming.
There's a thread where you can present your evidence for creation. Nobody has been able to do that yet. Why don't you try?
The only method left is to try to overwhelm the facts with bluster and bullying. Unfortunately, for most scientists the tactics work in silencing debate over the ToE.
Good, next week when I get the exact ages of the Archaean rocks I'm working on, I will think about the fact that these rocks might be bullying me into accepting that they are more than 10000 years old.:eek:
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
If there was evidence of evolution it would not be called the THEORY of evolution. We don't have the theory of dinosuars.. and why..because there is proof.

:facepalm:
You are new, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
For your education....

Scientific Law: This is a statement of fact meant to describe, in concise terms, an action or set of actions. It is generally accepted to be true and universal, and can sometimes be expressed in terms of a single mathematical equation. Scientific laws are similar to mathematical postulates. They don’t really need any complex external proofs; they are accepted at face value based upon the fact that they have always been observed to be true.
Specifically, scientific laws must be simple, true, universal, and absolute. They represent the cornerstone of scientific discovery, because if a law ever did not apply, then all science based upon that law would collapse.
Some scientific laws, or laws of nature, include the law of gravity, Newton's laws of motion, the laws of thermodynamics, Boyle's law of gases, the law of conservation of mass and energy, and Hook’s law of elasticity.



Scientific Hypothesis: This is an educated guess based upon observation. It is a rational explanation of a single event or phenomenon based upon what is observed, but which has not been proved. Most hypotheses can be supported or refuted by experimentation or continued observation.



Scientific Theory: A theory is more like a scientific law than a hypothesis. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. One scientist cannot create a theory; he can only create a hypothesis.
In general, both a scientific theory and a scientific law are accepted to be true by the scientific community as a whole. Both are used to make predictions of events. Both are used to advance technology.
In fact, some laws, such as the law of gravity, can also be theories when taken more generally. The law of gravity is expressed as a single mathematical expression and is presumed to be true all over the universe and all through time. Without such an assumption, we can do no science based on gravity's effects. But from the law, we derived the theory of gravity which describes how gravity works,what causes it, and how it behaves. We also use that to develop another theory, Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, in which gravity plays a crucial role. The basic law is intact, but the theory expands it to include various and complex situations involving space and time.
The biggest difference between a law and a theory is that a theory is much more complex and dynamic. A law describes a single action, whereas a theory explains an entire group of related phenomena.


Scientific Fact A Scientific Fact is an observation that has been confirmed repeatedly and is accepted as true (although its truth is never final). Both Scientific Laws and Scientific Theories are considered to be Scientific Facts.

Scientific Laws, Hypotheses, and Theories - The Scientific Method
What does scientific fact mean? definition, meaning and pronunciation (Free English Language Dictionary)
scientific fact, scientific facts- WordWeb dictionary definition

Please post this evidence for evolution you speak of so all can debate!

This thread is for the topic of how to present such evidence to Creationists, not the actual presentation. Here are the appropriate threads.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/98851-major-transitions-evolution.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...6685-theory-evolution-supported-evidence.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/88277-prove-creationism-id-here.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/94295-evolution-theory-evidence.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/93692-facts-relating-evolution.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ism/95456-creationists-heres-your-chance.html

Please read the previous posts in these threads to prevent yourself from making the same mistakes as others.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Audodidact
Well, in that case you believe impossible, contradictory things. Would you like to review the mathematical impossiblity of this in a separate thread?

First off, I don’t think it’s impossible, secondly I am already going through it in another thread. I don’t have time to do another thread on top of it.

Sorry, but you must be some combination of these things to believe something that is physically and mathematically impossible.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am NOT intellectually dishonest, and I am NOT WILLFULLY ignorant, and I am NOT stupid either. Now if you want to say I am IGNORANT, go right ahead, that does not bother me because I don’t consider that a COP out from you, but if you call me WILLFULLY ignorant, I consider that a cop out and cowering on your part. However even that, I don’t consider myself ignorant, but yes I do consider that I need to read MORE, which I plan on doing, thus I am not willfully ignorant.

I could say you’re a combination of willfully ignorant, intellectually dishonest or stupid, it does not help anything, does it? Solves NOTHING. But I won't call you those things because I am NOT a coward.

And frankly I think people who are always prone to calling others dishonest and willfully ignorant WHEN they do not KNOW this, THEY are the ones who cower away from addressing the merit of what someone says against their views, and they think their views cannot be questioned and so whoever does question them, is dishonest, THAT person who thinks that, is a coward to me, and therefore THEY are dishonest because they are a running coward.

Pardon me if I regard this claim with skepticism.

So are you telling me that someone who does not believe in the bible CANNOT question or WON’T question the theory of evolution and cosmic evolution?

Also, why don’t you believe me? How do you KNOW I am lying?

Oh, I understand you, I just don't believe you.

Yea, and why don’t you believe me? Do you also think every other young earth creationist or none believer in evolution is also not sincere?
 
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Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Not that I know of, because a fundamentalist is one who claims they follow the so-called "fundamentals" of Christianity, and they claim that one of these fundamentals is believing that the Bible is the final authority in all matters, and is the infalliable, inerrant word of God. God said it I believe it, that settles it... :facepalm:

Actually, this is not a "fundamental" of Christianity. Roman Catholics don't believe this, Eastern Orthodox don't believe it, and most Protestants don't believe it.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Actually, this is not a "fundamental" of Christianity. Roman Catholics don't believe this, Eastern Orthodox don't believe it, and most Protestants don't believe it.
True, for the most part, it is Evangelical Protestants, a large portion of which are Southern Baptists, who reject scientific evidence and embrace a dogmatic belief in ID and YEC.
 
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