Skwim
Veteran Member
Nope. I've simply found it a waste of time trying to explain things to people who lack the wherewithal to understand.Looks like i stumped ya.
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How Bad Can Abortions Be If God Sanctions Them?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
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Jollybear
Hey
Ok, so are you telling me you won't answer my questions because its not about understanding but rather about preaching your set (albeit twisted) interpretation?
Skwim
Veteran Member
Excellent find.
Time and again the scriptures have shown how little regard god has for the innocent unborn, not only killing them in great catastrophes, but on smaller scales as well.
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention.
“Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.”
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the their women with child shall be ripped open.
So it's no surprise that he should regard an act of adultery as more important than the life of an unborn child.“Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.”
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the their women with child shall be ripped open.
"Samaria will be desolate, because she has rebelled against her God; by the sword they will fall— their babies will be dashed, and their pregnant women ripped open."
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Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
Jollybear
Hey
If you read all of the context, the rest of the chapter, the reason for God withdrawing his PROTECTION from Ephraim is because of her rebelling against Gods authority. God then allows an invading army to come against her and her babies.
Again, just like the verse of the adulteress, so too here with Ephraim, she brought the calamity upon herself by rebelling against God.
If she forsakes God, then God forsakes her. When God forsakes her, then shes not under his PROTECTION when invaders come against her.
Hows that for a response huh? Cha ching, cha ching. Lol
Skwim
Veteran Member
Let me pose a question: A burglar breaks into your house and threatens to kill your mother if she moves. She moves. The burglar kills her. The police arrive and arrest him; however, the prosecuting attorney refuses to bring murder charges against the burglar because your mother brought the calamity upon herself by moving.
Fair or Unfair?
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Jollybear
Hey
Lol, good point. However, theres a problem with it. God is not the burgler, God OWNS the entire house and everything in it and around it. And God is not setting rules saying "dont move". His rules are "im the one in charge of this house. You follow my rules. If not, get out. And when trouble comes, dont come crying to me, UNLESS your willing to obey my orders.
TheresOnlyNow
The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
"If you have a womb you have a choice. If you have a penis you have an opinion."
The zealous anti-choice groups of today follow a history wherein their predecessors were just as zealously opposed to birth control in the early 20th century.
Their point being, you must give birth if you're pregnant no matter what. Women therefore being forced to be incubators for what was and remains in the mind of some, the superior male seed in this Patriarchy.
Wherein a religion attaches a gender to a spirit and then presumes to argue "he" is pro-life. Which is why all women should be stripped of having a choice about what they carry in their womb.
The OT God by many accounts today sounds like a serial murderer and psychopath compared to the image that's afforded "him" through the teachings of his demi-god form, Yeshua.
The collective that argues the God of the Hebrews was pro-life arguably present as one's who have never read, even given a cursory glance, the Old Testament.
Let's do the math concerning born life.
How many people did God's adversary, ha Satan, kill according to scripture?
Answer: 10
How many people did God , the creator of all life on earth, kill?
Answer: Incalculable when one considers the world population that was drowned during the Deluge.
God commanded the first born of every Egyptian house to be murdered . This was one of the punishments to befall the Pharaoh of Egypt whom Moses was sent to plead he release the Hebrew slaves serving in his custody.
However, prior to those first pleadings by Moses/Moshe, God told Moses that he would harden the Pharaoh's heart so that he would refuse.
And as Pharaoh refused each time he was commanded by Moses/Moshe on behalf of the God that hardened Pharaoh's heart to release the Jews, yet another plague befell the people of Egypt.
The first born of every Egyptian house being taken by God's death angel being the last.
The children of the Hebrew's were spared because Moses was told to paint those houses door frame with lambs blood prior to the death angel's arrival. This way God's angel would know which first born babies it was to leave alive.
All this being recalled so as to point out that God by his own words is NOT pro-life.
In fact, in the Book of Job we read where ha Satan returned to Heaven and made a bet with God concerning his most faithful servant, Job.
The bet was this, for those who don't know. Satan was sure Job would renounce God, lose his deep faith and trust, were he plagued enough in his life by the machinations of the Devil.
God bet not. And allowed Satan to do his worst to Job so as to challenge his faithfulness. However, there was a caveat. Satan was not allowed to kill Job.
And so, off Satan went thinking to win the bet against an Omniscient being.
Sure enough Job stayed true. However, he suffered horrific physical harm, his wife died, all of his kids. And he lost his fortune.
But God won the bet.
And rewarded Job's faithfulness by restoring all he'd lost many times over. Though his wife and kids remained dead.
Therefore, as pertains to the OP as I conclude this novelette, yes! The recipe described in Numbers was designed to cause a cheating wife who was suspected to be carrying the seed of another man not her husband to miscarry.
Because the formula God created in the beginning for that drink , every herb bearing plant for you shall be as meat, (see Genesis), was made to be medicine for humans to use for what ails.
The formula God ordained for the purpose of miscarriage in this scripture was created for that purpose. Today it is called an "Amenogague". An abortificant. Only it isn't that formula. It is a different herb , God's creation, that when ingested as a tea or douche, causes miscarriage.
See, life is choice.
God knows.
When we worship a supreme being in any religious practice it is important for our own sake not to sugar coat the qualities that being possesses. Especially when in the case of the God of Abraham, that God tells us in his own words precisely who he is.
And what we mean to him.
The zealous anti-choice groups of today follow a history wherein their predecessors were just as zealously opposed to birth control in the early 20th century.
Their point being, you must give birth if you're pregnant no matter what. Women therefore being forced to be incubators for what was and remains in the mind of some, the superior male seed in this Patriarchy.
Wherein a religion attaches a gender to a spirit and then presumes to argue "he" is pro-life. Which is why all women should be stripped of having a choice about what they carry in their womb.
The OT God by many accounts today sounds like a serial murderer and psychopath compared to the image that's afforded "him" through the teachings of his demi-god form, Yeshua.
The collective that argues the God of the Hebrews was pro-life arguably present as one's who have never read, even given a cursory glance, the Old Testament.
Let's do the math concerning born life.
How many people did God's adversary, ha Satan, kill according to scripture?
Answer: 10
How many people did God , the creator of all life on earth, kill?
Answer: Incalculable when one considers the world population that was drowned during the Deluge.
God commanded the first born of every Egyptian house to be murdered . This was one of the punishments to befall the Pharaoh of Egypt whom Moses was sent to plead he release the Hebrew slaves serving in his custody.
However, prior to those first pleadings by Moses/Moshe, God told Moses that he would harden the Pharaoh's heart so that he would refuse.
And as Pharaoh refused each time he was commanded by Moses/Moshe on behalf of the God that hardened Pharaoh's heart to release the Jews, yet another plague befell the people of Egypt.
The first born of every Egyptian house being taken by God's death angel being the last.
The children of the Hebrew's were spared because Moses was told to paint those houses door frame with lambs blood prior to the death angel's arrival. This way God's angel would know which first born babies it was to leave alive.
All this being recalled so as to point out that God by his own words is NOT pro-life.
In fact, in the Book of Job we read where ha Satan returned to Heaven and made a bet with God concerning his most faithful servant, Job.
The bet was this, for those who don't know. Satan was sure Job would renounce God, lose his deep faith and trust, were he plagued enough in his life by the machinations of the Devil.
God bet not. And allowed Satan to do his worst to Job so as to challenge his faithfulness. However, there was a caveat. Satan was not allowed to kill Job.
And so, off Satan went thinking to win the bet against an Omniscient being.
Sure enough Job stayed true. However, he suffered horrific physical harm, his wife died, all of his kids. And he lost his fortune.
But God won the bet.
And rewarded Job's faithfulness by restoring all he'd lost many times over. Though his wife and kids remained dead.
Therefore, as pertains to the OP as I conclude this novelette, yes! The recipe described in Numbers was designed to cause a cheating wife who was suspected to be carrying the seed of another man not her husband to miscarry.
Because the formula God created in the beginning for that drink , every herb bearing plant for you shall be as meat, (see Genesis), was made to be medicine for humans to use for what ails.
The formula God ordained for the purpose of miscarriage in this scripture was created for that purpose. Today it is called an "Amenogague". An abortificant. Only it isn't that formula. It is a different herb , God's creation, that when ingested as a tea or douche, causes miscarriage.
See, life is choice.
God knows.
When we worship a supreme being in any religious practice it is important for our own sake not to sugar coat the qualities that being possesses. Especially when in the case of the God of Abraham, that God tells us in his own words precisely who he is.
And what we mean to him.
TheresOnlyNow
The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Fair!
Let the killer go. So that his victims daughter can pass sentence that will last him his suffering for dayyyyyyys. Not years in a cell, with a color TV, free postage and conjugal visits.
Oh, did I write that out loud?
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
If you read all of the context, the rest of the chapter, the reason for God withdrawing his PROTECTION from Ephraim is because of her rebelling against Gods authority. God then allows an invading army to come against her and her babies.
Again, just like the verse of the adulteress, so too here with Ephraim, she brought the calamity upon herself by rebelling against God.
If she forsakes God, then God forsakes her. When God forsakes her, then shes not under his PROTECTION when invaders come against her.
Hows that for a response huh? Cha ching, cha ching. Lol
My, what a heartless and immoral God you describe. Instead of saving these poor innocent children from their wicked mother, God orders the poor innocent children killed. If she forsakes God, then God not only forsakes her, but the poor innocent children as well. How disgusting. Kind of like when God kills all of Egypt's innocent first born sons, just because their ruthless leader made God mad.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Not only that, but in the Exodus myth God specifically "hardens Pharaoh's heart" several times so that he does not let the Hebrews go. The morals of the Old Testament are atrocious. Why anyone would take those parts of the Bible literally is beyond me.
Jollybear
Hey
Oh wait a minute now. God has to forsake the wicked mothers children too because in this God teaches what happens when authority figures do evil, others under there care also pay by there evil actions.
So, if they want the good life for themselves and there children, then they must obey the owner of this universe. His house, his rules.
As for the firsborn of egypt dying, God was merely paying egypt back for egypt killing the isrealite male children prior. Karma sucks, doesnt it?
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
My, what barbaric logic. So according to what you're saying when we catch a parent who has been abusing their child, we should punish the abusive parent as well as the child that was being abused... all so that we can teach others a lesson about what happens to you and your offspring if you're abusive. That sounds horribly immoral to me.
And then you want to take that same immoral philosophy and apply it to entire nations. You do realize that the pharaoh was a totalitarian ruler whose word was law, right? It's not as if the people of Egypt got together and voted to mistreat the Israelite people. It was pharaoh - whose heart was 'hardened' by God by the way - who was responsible. So the poor Egyptians not only had to suffer under the brutal rule of an iron-fisted pharaoh, but then you consider it to be fair and just to punish every single parent with a first born son for the atrocities committed by this brutal iron-fisted tyrant.
Sorry, but punishing people for the acts committed by another individual can NEVER be considered moral or just.
Jollybear
Hey
Lol, that was cute. I like that.
Well, no. Its a case by case basis. The whole mosaic law laid out all the laws. Abusing kids was not permitted. But also, other laws about serving other gods was forbidden as well. Also other things, like theift, adultery, murder, liers, diet, agriculture, housing, ect. The list goes on and on. All these laws came with various kinds of punishment. Each punishment was different. So, when the people rejected God, they then rejected his protection.
Look at this verse > numbers 14:18
"The LORD is slow to anger and filled with unfailing love, forgiving every kind of sin and rebellion. But he does not excuse the guilty. He lays the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected--even children in the third and fourth generations.'"
If God stopped every sin, freedom would be gone and if that happened, youd surely complain about that, wouldnt you?
With freedom comes the potential to sin. Sin has negative EFFECTS on the sinner and those around the sinner. In this case, children or the next generation. If God stopped the negative effects while at the same time allowing the sins to happen, would that not be a weird world indeed? You could punch a child, give him a bleeding nose and hed look at you, laugh and say thank you and the nose would instantly stop bleeding.
I dont think God is WEIRD like this. I think he uses wisdom in how he designs the entire system.
Are you forgetting, or are you not aware that pharough also hardened his own heart in conjunction with God giving him over to it? Exodus 8:32
Yes, its fair because these egyptians did not have to obey the order of the pharough. They could have dethroned him. The fact they did not, made them cowards, deserving of there karma.
The children are not being held accountable for there parrents sin, there being EFFECTED by there sins. The effects are like a seed that germinates and reaps a harvest of calamity.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
"The LORD is slow to anger and filled with unfailing love, forgiving eery kind of sin and rebellion. But he does not excuse the guilty. He lays the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected--even children in the third and fourth generations.'"
What a horribly SICK policy. It's God who decided that a child that hasn't even been conceived yet should be held accountable and punished for actions taken by their great-great-great grandparents. If a human being were to establish a policy where people are still being punished for what their ancestors did over a hundred years ago virtually everyone would declare such a policy to be immoral and wrong.
If God stopped every sin, freedom would be gone and if that happened, youd surely complain about that, wouldnt you?
With freedom comes the potential to sin. Sin has negative EFFECTS on the sinner and those around the sinner. In this case, children or the next generation. If God stopped the negative effects while at the same time allowing the sins to happen, would that not be a weird world indeed? You could punch a child, give him a bleeding nose and hed look at you, laugh and say thank you and the nose would instantly stop bleeding.
Yet God doesn't just not stop the negative effects, what he does is ADDS to the negative effects by declaring that people who did not commit any sin should be punished for the sins that OTHER people committed. If we had a system in place in which YOU were punished for crimes that an ancestor of yours committed four generations ago, would you consider that to be a fair and just system?
Are you forgetting, or are you not aware that pharough also hardened his own heart in conjunction with God giving him over to it? Exodus 8:32
It sounds as if you're saying that because Pharaoh did it then it's okay for God to do it as well. Personally I don't think that two wrongs make a right.
Yes, its fair because these egyptians did not have to obey the order of the pharough. They could have dethroned him. The fact they did not, made them cowards, deserving of there karma.
Ah yes, the blame the victim argument. Clearly you are clueless as to how little power the common people have in a society where the people have been brainwashed to believe that their leader is a representative of God. That's why it's EXTREMELY rare in history for the common masses to rise up against an all powerful tyrant and succeed. When kings/pharaohs/tyrants have been overthrown, it's almost always because some other faction with power stepped in and overthrew the current leadership. Your common Egyptian peasant had virtually zero ability to dethrone an iron-fisted tyrant like pharaoh. So first these poor peasants are unfortunate enough to be born in a nation governed by a totalitarian ruler and then God decides to punish the poor peasants for the acts committed by the totalitarian ruler they've been unfortunate enough to have to suffer under for their entire lives. And you consider this to be a just and loving God?
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Thanks. These interpretations are 1 way to look at it. Still I prefer the symbolic way I see it. That makes more sense in the spiritual sense to me.
But I do understand that other people interpret it in the way they do. This reminds me of "Offering the son" in the Bible. I could never believe this was meant to be literally done. Even as a child age 10, I could not believe this, and still not.
All these stories to me are all about important lessons to learn. Not about killing and mutilating bodies. Just about improving as a human being.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The reason that you cannot take parts of the Bible literally is simply due to your own morals and refusing to believe that the God of the Bible does not have the same morals as you do. It is all but impossible to take the passage in the OP figuratively. It does represent the morals of the Hebrews at that time.
We Never Know
No Slack
If god sanctioned abortions, genocide and wars, which all cut back on over population, is that good or bad?
You and I both know if not for the 3 above, humans would be in worse shape.
Regardless if bible is pro choice or pro life I think we just have to ask ourselves what is human rights? Only women should be allowed to vote on this subject..
Came across the following decree in Numbers
Numbers 5:11-21
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Tell the Israelites this: A man’s wife might be unfaithful to him. 13 She might have sexual relations with another man and hide this from her husband. And there might not be anyone to tell him that his wife committed this sin. Her husband might never know about the wrong thing she did, and she might not tell her husband about her sin. 14 But the husband might begin to think that his wife sinned against him, whether she has or not. He might become jealous. He might begin to believe that she is not pure and true to him. 15 If that happens, he must take his wife to the priest. The husband must also take an offering of 8 cups of barley flour. He must not pour oil or incense on the barley flour. This barley flour is a grain offering to the Lord that is given because the husband is jealous. This offering will show that he thinks his wife has been unfaithful to him.
16 “The priest will take the woman before the Lord and make her stand there. 17 Then he will take some special water and put it in a clay jar. He will put some dirt from the floor of the Holy Tent into the water. 18 He will force the woman to stand before the Lord. Then he will loosen her hair and put the grain offering in her hand. This is the barley flour that her husband gave because he was jealous. At the same time, he will hold the clay jar of special water. This is the special water that can bring trouble to the woman.
19 “Then the priest will make the woman promise to tell the truth and say to her: ‘If you have not slept with another man, and if you have not sinned against your husband while you were married to him, then this water that causes trouble will not hurt you. 20 But if you have sinned against your husband—if you had sexual relations with a man who is not your husband—then you are not pure. 21 If that is true, you will have much trouble when you drink this special water. You will not be able to have any children. And if you are pregnant now, your baby will die.
In other words, an act of adultery outweighs the worth of an unborn child.
Interesting god, this god of Abraham.
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Jollybear
Hey
We are both interpreting that verse differently. How surprising that is, huh? Lol.
God is not holding the babies or the next generation accountable. Hes not saying the babies DID the bad actions. Hes saying that the ripple effects of there parrents bad actions go down the time line. Now, of course if the next generation did not learn from history and repeat it, then the ripple effect continues. Its like a snowball on a high mountain. It keeps rolling and getting bigger and bigger. Then theres an avalanche.
Heres the thing too, a human government and a God being a government is not the same thing. With a human they got to juggle policy with freedom. We call this political science. With God, its a bit different. God does not just juggle policy with freedom, he designs the entire system in between. So, questions like 'do i make humans robots?' Or 'do i make them have the ability to choose?' Or 'if they choose, do i permit there decisions to effect others?'
Those are questions God can only ask. A human government cannot have that kind of power.
So, God designs the system where humans have the ability to choose and there choices have effects.
No, your not understanding this. God out of pure wisdom does not stop the effects of choices. Our choices are a seed that germinates and creates effects around us.
God does not directly punish and hold the children accountable for the actions of there parrents. Look and see > deuteronomy 24:16 "Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."
Is this a contradiction? No, its not. Remember, God is different then a human government. God does not just juggle policy with freedom, he juggles how the creation design itself must be.
So, heres how it works. God permits the EFFECTS of choices. But, there is no direct punishment on the children for the parrents sin or vise versa.
How it works is if we harden our own heart, then God gives us over to it, that giving over heardens it more. Remember, God is not a human government, this is a God your dealing with, hes a part of the whole fabric of reality. This includes the heart.
I dont believe everyone, most actually, are gonna be brainwashed to go kill the babies of slaves.
I live in the USA. If hypothetically trump and congress tomorow made an order to everyone to kill all babies of illegal immigrants because they will rise up and take over, i would not do it. I think. Many others would not either. Eccept for cowards.
Cowards get what they deserve. Yes, cowards deserve it. They are discusting humans.