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Featured How Bad Can Abortions Be If God Sanctions Them?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Skwim, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    That is not a distorted translation. Experts on the euphemisms of the people at the time know what was meant by the word "thigh".
     
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  2. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    I think the real apologist here is YOU. Apologist for anti bible.

    There is nothing in the verse that says she even has a baby, let alone whether a baby dies.

    Here are the hebrew words for this passage >
    Old Testament Hebrew - StudyLight.org

    And > Old Testament Hebrew - StudyLight.org

    Numbers 5:21 - STR - with Study Resources - with Context - Study Desk

    All of them refere to her organs. Not an actual baby. So her procreative power would be gone.

    Here is a bunch of translations and only one translates it as miscarry (NIV) >

    Numbers 5:22 May this water that brings a curse enter your stomach and cause your belly to swell and your thigh to shrivel.' Then the woman is to say, 'Amen, Amen.'

    Numbers 5:22 May this water that brings a curse enter your stomach and cause your belly to swell and your thigh to shrivel.' Then the woman is to say, 'Amen, Amen.'

    That translation your quoting above, where did you get that from?

    I didnt say it was called a lie detector test. I said it served the same purpose as one. The context of the passage CLEARLY shows thats what its purpose was.

    Also, YES, she was given a chance to confess the truth. Verse 19 > “Then the priest will make the woman promise to tell the truth".

    Nope. It was not Gods fault. It was HER fault. If she confesses guilt, then she dont need to drink. The drink is to reveal whether shes guilty or not. Its clearly there in the passage. If it wer a grasshopper, it jump off the page and hit ya in the head. If she says shes not guilty, then she must drink so the others can find out if shes lying. The lie will reveal itself in her suffering. If she tells the truth, she wont suffer. You see? Its to detect a lie. So, if she did not wish to suffer this way, it behoove her to confess up front.

    However, its not the drink that will kill her anyway if shes guilty. The stoning will do that. The adulterer was killed.

    So, she knew the law. If you broke it, you bring punishment on yourself.

    Let me ask you this, is adultery GOOD?
     
    #22 Jollybear, Jan 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
  3. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    "DON'T....... DO....... THAT" [​IMG] MY, MY AREN'T WE FULL OF OURSELVES.



    Yeah, I know, because unlike you I haven't been properly indoctrinated in one of the "accurate" [​IMG] translations. Gee, by chance could they happen to agree with your theology? How coincidental :rolleyes:


    So what? Are you really not astute enough to recognize what

    "makes your thigh rot and your belly swell" ​
    and
    " making your thigh waste away and your abdomen swell;"
    means? Really?

    .
     
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  4. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    FYI Posting a block of scripture and then making an observation about it "In other words, an act of adultery outweighs the worth of an unborn child." hardly constitutes apologetics.

    Well let's read it again.

    "21 If that is true, you will have much trouble when you drink this special water. You will not be able to have any children. And if you are pregnant now, your baby will die

    It isn't important what the Hebrew words may mean. What is important is what the Bibles of today are telling the people of today. And in this case they're telling the people of today that god will make sure that an adulterous women's unborn baby will die.


    And here are several more: Numbers 5:21

    (MSG)
    "Let this water that delivers a curse enter your body so that your belly swells and your womb shrivels"

    (CEB)
    "the Lord induces a miscarriage and your womb discharges."

    (NRSVCE)
    "Lord makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge;"

    (VOIC)
    "because you will have a miscarriage and your belly will swell."

    (CEV)
    "you will never be able to give birth to a child,"

    (EXB)
    “He will make your ·stomach get big [uterus drop], and he will make your ·body unable to give birth to another baby [womb discharge;  thigh waste away/wither;  a euphemism for the womb].​


    So there's no doubt what will happen. The baby dies.

    Please pay attention to the phrasing and punctuation.

    So where does it say that telling the truth will save the child?

    Immaterial.

    .
     
    #24 Skwim, Jan 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
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  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I have run into the claim that I am misquoting the Bible. It as if some Christians think that their version is the only version. I am pretty sure that you used Biblehub too. It is a very useful site at times. Funny, they never apologize for the false accusation.

    I wonder how some of the men knew that their wife had cheated. Since many Hebrews were shepherds, and they might be away from home for a while, do you think that coming home to a pregnant wife might have been a hint that something was wrong?
     
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  6. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    When you read enough in the Bible you'll find that God is the largest abortion provider in the entire universe. I agree, look at the miscarriage statistics.
     
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  7. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    I bet it was ok for a bloke to cheat on his wife, though!

    God supposedly got Mary pregnant when she was in a relationship with Joseph, that wasn't considered wrong!

    I think a woman has an absolute right to an abortion, especially in the first trimester, if she does not want a child, for whatever reason.
     
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  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    And there's this one as well ─

    Hosea 13:
    16 Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
    Nothin' beats that ol' Bronze Age charm, hey?

    In other words, the point you make is essentially valid. According to scripture, God has no argument with abortion or infanticide.

    Makes you wonder why these 'pro-life' Christians don't read their bibles.
     
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  9. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Thats true, unless of course many of your threads are anti-bible. Which, they are. So, you are a anti-bible apologist. :cool:

    What bible version is that, im curious?

    Also, yes, the hebrew words and there meanings are the most paramount of importance. After all, thats the original language.

    Ok, but your missing what else i said. Even if shes pregnent, which isnt guaranteed, and the baby dies, its not Gods fault, its hers. She brings it on herself.

    Its a lie detector test.

    IF(big if) shes telling the truth, the baby lives despite her drinking the water.


    Oh its important. Is adultery wrong?
     
  10. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    When I click your link, I do get quite a different text though then yours "And if you are pregnant now, your baby will die". I get the below:
    21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;

    I don't interpret it that way. How I read it: "She has to swear and when she did do it, her thigh will rot and belly swell. It seems just figuratively meant to me. Her bad behavior will result in a "rotten baby", meaning the baby having here genes will also have bad habits. Belly is the centre of feeling, so when there are rotten emotions the baby will be also "a bit rotten". Anyway "thy belly to swell" can mean also that the baby continues to grow (but becomes rotten). For sure it does not necessarily means "abortion" to me. If it would say "thy belly to swell and explode/implode" or something, I might think of something along the lines of abortion.

    But it's an interesting verse: I always look at symbolism. I don't take verses literally most of the time.
    Barley is known for purifying kidneys. Kidneys stand for relationships. So my guess would be "If the man suspects his wife, he should fast for 8 days on barley (1 cup/day). Not using oil (heats the system and jealousy is heat) or flavour (gives desires, also linked with jealousy), just steam it and eat it. If the man is fasting, God will solve his problem (doubt whether or not she is cheating).

    For me it's no surprise that "abortion is not such a big deal". We are talking here about "Truth, Love, Justice". Those sustain the universe, the scriptures declare. The whole universe is full of birth/death. The one thing we know for sure is that our body will die one day. So it is a good eye-opener this verse, which puts "abortion" in another perspective. BUT also don't take it light, we talk about a serious wrongdoing (cheating your husband after promising to never cheat ... till death do us part)
     
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Amazing acrobatics to excuse God.

    Trying to blame the mother does not fly. The God of the Bible has no problem killing the innocent.
     
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  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I did not find that in the text.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Moses wrote the book with the inspiration of God.
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it is very easy for anyone to understand. If the woman has a baby without the husbands assistance then she committed adultery.

    I suspect my wife of messing around because my third child was conceived in a strange manner. However a DNA test has revealed that it is my child. Otherwise I would have no way of knowing for sure.
     
  15. Stanyon

    Stanyon RF's Ultra -Square

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    Aleister Crowley wrote the Book of the Law (Liber Legis) supposedly under the guidance of Aiwass, another after him claimed Set guided his pen. It's a good gimmick to claim legitimacy of something or other because a higher power or intelligence told you so, some of the biggest religions have used it.
     
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  16. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Have a good day.

    .
     
  17. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Looks like i stumped ya. :D:p

    Let me ask you this. Is this water she drinks a abortion procedure or a lie detector procedure?

    Also, is it gaurenteed that shes pregnent?

    Also, if shes innocent of adultery, does she suffer along with her possible baby still?

    :cool: come on now. I got ya good one dis one, didnt i? Lol
     
  18. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    So true. And then there's Exodus 21:22-25,, the passage that explains what should happen if one man does something to cause another man's wife to suffer a miscarriage. IF God considered abortion to be murder THEN you'd expect that the punishment for 'murdering' this unborn child would be death. However, according to God's Word, the man who's wife had their child aborted has the option of bringing the man who caused the abortion before a legal council to decide the amount of the fine the offender should pay. However, if the man whose wife lost the child didn't really want the child, he could forgive the man who caused the child to be aborted and let him off without any penalty at all.
     
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  19. Scott C.

    Scott C. Just one guy

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    It's not very complicated for someone who believes in God, his goodness, and his sovereignty. God decides who lives and dies and makes the rules on when mere mortals should start or end a life.
     
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  20. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I didn't post a link. If you're referring to the Numbers 5:11-21 at the beginning of the verses that brings you to the King James version of the Bible, that's RF's little app.

    If you take a look at some of the alternative renderings I provided in post 24 it should be apparent that the baby dies.
    Moreover, we have these comments and information from other sources

    Christianity.com Bible Commentary

    Numbers 5:21
    [21] Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;

    An oath — That is, a form of cursing, that when they would curse a person, they may wish that they may be as miserable as thou wast.

    Thy thigh — A modest expression, used both in scripture, as Genesis 46:26, Exodus 1:5, and other authors.

    To rot — Heb. to fall, that is, to die or waste away.

    To swell — Suddenly and violently till it burst, which the Jews note was frequent in this case. And it was a clear evidence of the truth of their religion.
    source

    And this

    Matthew Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible

    Numbers 5:21

    An oath, i.e. a form of cursing or imprecatory oaths, that when they would curse a person, they may wish that they may be as cursed and miserable as thou wast upon this occasion. See the phrase Isaiah 65:15 Jeremiah 29:22 and compare Genesis 48:20 Ruth 4:11,12.

    Thy thigh; a modest signification of the genital parts, used both in Scripture, as Genesis 46:26 Exodus 1:5, and other authors, that the sin might be evident in the punishment.

    To rot, Heb. to fall, i.e. to die or waste away, as the word is used,
    source

    .
     
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