How Bad Can Abortions Be If God Sanctions Them?

[Skwim]

.

Came across the following decree in Numbers

Numbers 5:11-21

11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Tell the Israelites this: A man’s wife might be unfaithful to him. 13 She might have sexual relations with another man and hide this from her husband. And there might not be anyone to tell him that his wife committed this sin. Her husband might never know about the wrong thing she did, and she might not tell her husband about her sin. 14 But the husband might begin to think that his wife sinned against him, whether she has or not. He might become jealous. He might begin to believe that she is not pure and true to him. 15 If that happens, he must take his wife to the priest. The husband must also take an offering of 8 cups of barley flour. He must not pour oil or incense on the barley flour. This barley flour is a grain offering to the Lord that is given because the husband is jealous. This offering will show that he thinks his wife has been unfaithful to him.

16 “The priest will take the woman before the Lord and make her stand there. 17 Then he will take some special water and put it in a clay jar. He will put some dirt from the floor of the Holy Tent into the water. 18 He will force the woman to stand before the Lord. Then he will loosen her hair and put the grain offering in her hand. This is the barley flour that her husband gave because he was jealous. At the same time, he will hold the clay jar of special water. This is the special water that can bring trouble to the woman.

19 “Then the priest will make the woman promise to tell the truth and say to her: ‘If you have not slept with another man, and if you have not sinned against your husband while you were married to him, then this water that causes trouble will not hurt you. 20 But if you have sinned against your husband—if you had sexual relations with a man who is not your husband—then you are not pure. 21 If that is true, you will have much trouble when you drink this special water. You will not be able to have any children. And if you are pregnant now, your baby will die.

​

In other words, an act of adultery outweighs the worth of an unborn child.

Interesting god, this god of Abraham.

.

 

[Stanyon]

Sounds to me like some old Hebrews wanted to psychologically torture their wives if they suspected them of cheating with the full consent and help of a priest. They wrote the book, their God is a reflection of them.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Not challenging your view of the situation.

I must season it by saying that it is a primitive man's best effort at explaining something he could not understand.

 

[Skwim]

Not challenging your view of the situation.

I must season it by saying that it is a primitive man's best effort at explaining something he could not understand.

What do you think they're not understanding? And, isn't it god's decree?

.

 

[Skwim]

Sounds to me like some old Hebrews wanted to psychologically torture their wives if they suspected them of cheating with the full consent and help of a priest. They wrote the book, their God is a reflection of them.

So, god is not the author of the Bible. Okay, I can go along with that.

.

 

[columbus]

Not challenging your view of the situation.

I'll do it.
Skwim is clueless about many thongs.

I must season it by saying that it is a primitive man's best effort at explaining something he could not understand.

I oppose human beings feeling entitled to kill other human beings. Abortion is just one way people do that.

Here's a good article that sums up my opinions quite well.
Yes, There Are Pro-Life Atheists Out There. Here’s Why I’m One of Them

Thank you for reading it.
Tom

 

[Jollybear]

.

Came across the following decree in Numbers

Numbers 5:11-21

11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Tell the Israelites this: A man’s wife might be unfaithful to him. 13 She might have sexual relations with another man and hide this from her husband. And there might not be anyone to tell him that his wife committed this sin. Her husband might never know about the wrong thing she did, and she might not tell her husband about her sin. 14 But the husband might begin to think that his wife sinned against him, whether she has or not. He might become jealous. He might begin to believe that she is not pure and true to him. 15 If that happens, he must take his wife to the priest. The husband must also take an offering of 8 cups of barley flour. He must not pour oil or incense on the barley flour. This barley flour is a grain offering to the Lord that is given because the husband is jealous. This offering will show that he thinks his wife has been unfaithful to him.

16 “The priest will take the woman before the Lord and make her stand there. 17 Then he will take some special water and put it in a clay jar. He will put some dirt from the floor of the Holy Tent into the water. 18 He will force the woman to stand before the Lord. Then he will loosen her hair and put the grain offering in her hand. This is the barley flour that her husband gave because he was jealous. At the same time, he will hold the clay jar of special water. This is the special water that can bring trouble to the woman.

19 “Then the priest will make the woman promise to tell the truth and say to her: ‘If you have not slept with another man, and if you have not sinned against your husband while you were married to him, then this water that causes trouble will not hurt you. 20 But if you have sinned against your husband—if you had sexual relations with a man who is not your husband—then you are not pure. 21 If that is true, you will have much trouble when you drink this special water. You will not be able to have any children. And if you are pregnant now, your baby will die.

​

In other words, an act of adultery outweighs the worth of an unborn child.

Interesting god, this god of Abraham.

.

This water was not poison. If she was innocent, she, nor a baby would die. If she was guilty, then her thigh would waste away. Most translations dont say miscarry. But, even if it was miscarry, if she would CONFESS her guilt before drinking, then thered be no need to drink it. Why? Because the PURPOSE behind the drink was NOT to kill the baby or her, it was to serve as a lie detector test.

So, if she did not want harm to come to her, shed best tell the truth instead of the truth comming out the hard way.

Basically, if her belly or baby got harmed, it was not Gods fault, it was HER FAULT.

Hows that for ya, huh?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'll do it.
Skwim is clueless about many thongs.



I oppose human beings feeling entitled to kill other human beings. Abortion is just one way people do that.

Here's a good article that sums up my opinions quite well.
Yes, There Are Pro-Life Atheists Out There. Here’s Why I’m One of Them

Thank you for reading it.
Tom

I get so tired of the use of the term "pro-life" being used to separate all the good pro-lifers from the horrible pro-deathers. As it happens, I am quite pro-life...I revel in life, I think that life is much better than the alternative (important to me, since I'm nearing the end of, but also because abortion was so hard in 1947 when I was conceived out-of-wedlock and not wanted). But why do we always wind up framing this topic in terms of only one way or the other -- either don't ever kill a "baby" (which isn't, by the way, yet a "baby") or kill all of them? God Dammit, life is more complex than that, and you don't, I don't, Skwim don't and nobody else either has all the answers!

Like I said, I'm pro-life. I despise how much abortion is used these days as a kind of delayed contraception. That's just careless, clueless, and … human. But sometimes, as they say, **** happens. Or even worse, sometimes things happen to innocent people who are then left to deal with the consequences. Ever heard of rape? Ever heard of ignorance, or stupidity, or just plain carelessness? Or how about succumbing to pressure for maybe bad reasons but that you couldn't think your way out of at the time?

And I also wish that people would consider that it is a very real fact that more than half of all successful fertilizations end without a child being born, and do so only for perfectly natural reasons. And the clear point here is that a fertilized egg is NOT a child, and a 31 day old zygote is not a child, and a foetus in the first trimester, if expelled naturally by the body, cannot possibly survive (and usually not in the second trimester, as well).

Wouldn't it be infinitely better if we all just taught our children the real truth about life, love, sex, abstinence, contraception and the rest -- without shame and embarrassment -- and thus just make it so much more likely that an abortion decision will one day will never need to be made?

I tell you honestly, I think a huge part of the problem that leads to far too many abortions is our unwillingness to simply confront the sexual part of our nature as natural, as something that's all about us, as something that we need have no shame about. And frankly, I blame religion for a lot of that.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Skwim is clueless about many thongs.

You could share some with him if you're into that kind of thing.

 

[Ellen Brown]

What do you think they're not understanding? And, isn't it god's decree?

.

OK. Something I do not understand and don't know how to process.

 

[columbus]

You could share some with him if you're into that kind of thing.

I only hit on people like @Revoltingest.
People I am confident won't surprise me with something complex.
Tom

 

[columbus]

I get so tired of the use of the term "pro-life" being used to separate all the good pro-lifers from the horrible pro-deathers.

I agree.
I get sick and tired of people who support everything from environmental disaster to preemptive war to capital punishment calling themselves ProLife.
I also get sick and tired of people who will only discuss the choice of feticide, and refer to themselves as ProChoice.

But I am stuck with the labels people use.
Tom

 

[Skwim]

This water was not poison. If she was innocent, she, nor a baby would die. If she was guilty, then her thigh would waste away.

Most translations dont say miscarry.

However it's worded, the baby dies.

But, even if it was miscarry, if she would CONFESS her guilt before drinking, then thered be no need to drink it. Why? Because the PURPOSE behind the drink was NOT to kill the baby or her, it was to serve as a lie detector test.

So, if she did not want harm to come to her, shed best tell the truth instead of the truth comming out the hard way.

Doesn't say a thing about any confession saving the baby, or a "lie detector test."

Basically, if her belly or baby got harmed, it was not Gods fault, it was HER FAULT.

Nope. Your Clean Hands Ploy here doesn't work. It's god decision that if an adulterous woman is pregnant her baby will die.

Hows that for ya, huh?

How about, sad.


.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'll do it.
Skwim is clueless about many thongs.

Only make ones. I understand that he is quite the fan of women that wear them.

I oppose human beings feeling entitled to kill other human beings. Abortion is just one way people do that.

Here's a good article that sums up my opinions quite well.
Yes, There Are Pro-Life Atheists Out There. Here’s Why I’m One of Them

Thank you for reading it.
Tom

There is no doubt that there are atheists that oppose abortion. This thread is only about the Bible position on the topic. It does not appear to be against it.

 

[columbus]

This thread is only about the Bible position on the topic.

Oh noes!
I wrote a post responding to someone who mentioned an opinion not entirely on the OP topic.

Report me. I haven't gotten an infraction point in weeks. It's making me a little itchy fingered.
Tom

 

[Subduction Zone]

However it's worded, the baby dies.


Doesn't say a thing about any confession saving the baby.


Nope. Your Clean Hands Ploy here doesn't work. It's god decision that if an adulterous woman is pregnant her baby will die.


How about, sad.


.

Many people make the mistake of always taking the Bible literally and ignore the idioms of the time. Bible scholars know how euphemisms were used in writing the Bible. If one saw the word "thigh" it usually meant something to do with the reproductive organs. In this case it means the womb. When Jacob wrestled with God it meant God cheated and nailed him in the nads.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh noes!
I wrote a post responding to someone who mentioned an opinion not entirely on the OP topic.

Report me. I haven't gotten an infraction point in weeks. It's making me a little itchy fingered.
Tom

Nah, just trying to keep the debate on topic. I in my infinite wisdom and modesty pardon you.

 

[Skwim]

I oppose human beings feeling entitled to kill other human beings. Abortion is just one way people do that.

Guess it comes down to how one defines "human being." In the illustration here where do you say it begins?

Here's a good article that sums up my opinions quite well.
Yes, There Are Pro-Life Atheists Out There. Here’s Why I’m One of Them

Thank you for reading it.
Tom

Sorry, but a bit too long.

.

 

[columbus]

Guess it comes down to how one defines "human being."

I find the science on the subject adequate.
Tom

 

[A REAL CHRISTIAN]

.

Came across the following decree in Numbers

Numbers 5:11-21

11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Tell the Israelites this: A man’s wife might be unfaithful to him. 13 She might have sexual relations with another man and hide this from her husband. And there might not be anyone to tell him that his wife committed this sin. Her husband might never know about the wrong thing she did, and she might not tell her husband about her sin. 14 But the husband might begin to think that his wife sinned against him, whether she has or not. He might become jealous. He might begin to believe that she is not pure and true to him. 15 If that happens, he must take his wife to the priest. The husband must also take an offering of 8 cups of barley flour. He must not pour oil or incense on the barley flour. This barley flour is a grain offering to the Lord that is given because the husband is jealous. This offering will show that he thinks his wife has been unfaithful to him.

16 “The priest will take the woman before the Lord and make her stand there. 17 Then he will take some special water and put it in a clay jar. He will put some dirt from the floor of the Holy Tent into the water. 18 He will force the woman to stand before the Lord. Then he will loosen her hair and put the grain offering in her hand. This is the barley flour that her husband gave because he was jealous. At the same time, he will hold the clay jar of special water. This is the special water that can bring trouble to the woman.

19 “Then the priest will make the woman promise to tell the truth and say to her: ‘If you have not slept with another man, and if you have not sinned against your husband while you were married to him, then this water that causes trouble will not hurt you. 20 But if you have sinned against your husband—if you had sexual relations with a man who is not your husband—then you are not pure. 21 If that is true, you will have much trouble when you drink this special water. You will not be able to have any children. And if you are pregnant now, your baby will die.

​

In other words, an act of adultery outweighs the worth of an unborn child.

Interesting god, this god of Abraham.

.

First off i noticed you are using a highly distorted translation of the bible DONT DO THAT. You will never understand what it says. the bible has a way of putting a lot of detail in a few words dont mess with it. If you read an accurate translation like nkjv or NASB or interlinear you will see that a baby or abortion is NEVER MENTIONED. Its just a lie detector test. the NIV translation does say misscarriage but the NIV is also a questionable translation. This is another example of skeptics trying to find issues with the bible, not finding any, so making issues up.
Dime a dozen