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How are these Great Beings explained?

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Are you suggesting that Hinduism is a fad? Or is it homosexuality that's a fad? The animal kingdom has lots of homosexuality. Is that a fad?

How exactly is it harmful to society? Two people in a committed relationship, rather than being Baha'i' and lonely without a close human companion. seems comforting and humane to me. Better than the punishment of exclusion.

I would agree that adultery is usually harmful to a marriage, and often happens for the wrong reasons.

Hi Vinayaka. Nothing in my ost was referring to Hinduism which we believe is from God.

Marriage is only permitted between a man and a woman in Bahá'í law and for good reasons. So they go their way and we go ours.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Is the Bible from God? If yes, then... Are the things in it facts?

Yes of course. But when you are saying we are taking things out of context you need to explain which context and prove that the context as you understand it is the correct context.

Over 40,000 sects of Christianity can't agree on the Bible so who has the right context? They all say they they have the right context yet they contradict one another so which of the 40,000 contexts is the right one?

At least with Baha'is we all agree on one and the same context all over the world.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Hi Vinayaka. Nothing in my ost was referring to Hinduism which we believe is from God.

Marriage is only permitted between a man and a woman in Bahá'í law and for good reasons. So they go their way and we go ours.

You're avoiding the question, as is common. So I'll repeat it in clearer languages. Do Baha'is think that homosexuality is just a fad that some people go through?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I'm not trying to prove you wrong, Tony. I am saying you can believe whatever you choose. Christianity (and Hindu and Buddhism and...) sees it different ways. You do not have to agree. Just puzzles me why you don't see it not that you do not agree. That, and I do take time to ask these questions and write these posts. So, it's an insult to me to bypass it without referring to them at the very least.
Would you have us look at God through the veiws of Carlita, that does not beleive in God? That would be strange to say the least.

Why would you ask that? I don't see how that relates.

I'm saying:

1. Christ is above scripture (Mathew 18:20) He is the body not a person
2. Trinity is father, son, and holy spirit with the same nature (John 4:24; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Luke 1:35; Romans 8:2-6)
3. Mainstream christians believe in the trinity. I do not.

Jesus tells you "people look to scriptures as if they hold eternal life. Even they testify to my behalf." (Mark 8:24)

They testify to the body of christ who is in union with god. You keep looking at scriptures to find the body, you're missing out on what he is talking about. Whether you believe in the trinity or not is not the point of christianity (though many may disagree). It means you have a creator, are a sinner, in need of redemption, through the body of christ via communion, believe in his resurrection and thereby yours, to be in union with god with a new body unsinned.

You are not a christian. I experienced this. Just not many christians explain it as I do if not at all. Doesn't mean it's wrong. Just different. It's not a curse word.

Carlita your views need a Mediator, they need a foundation. Your like a chameleon that changes colour with each post. :glomp:

I don't see how this relates. If you have read my posts, this would be ridiculous.

Chameleon with colors? Cute. Online does nothing for context. What are you talking about?

You could choose to read and understand what Baha'u'llah is saying. I hope you do one day (well pray you will)

I can only read what all of you guys posted. If you have read my posts, I said that my reading scripture, bahaullah's words, the gita, the quran, doesn't magically make me believe.

I am not a sacred-scripture person.

I go to god directly. I just define it (not him and not her) differently.

I take time to write these posts. Please don't be sarcastic and give me hugs at the same time. It's totally rude and very confusing.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
So Jewish Scriptures say Isaac and Jesus and Muhammad didn't correct that error? Only Baha'u'llah? So the implication is that Moses knew. And had it right. That it was Ishmael not Isaac that was offered as a sacrifice. Then how did it get recorded wrong in Jewish Scriptures?


All we do know for certain is that Ishmael was Abraham's only son as Isaac was born about 13 years later. So when Abraham was told to offer up his only son only Ishmael qualifies as he was first born. It couldn't have been Isaac as Isaac had not been born yet so Isaac was never Abraham's only son.

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son ..." (Hebrews 11:17, R.S.V.)

According to the Quran Moses was first told to sacrifice His son. Then AFTER the sacrifice He was given the glad tidings of the soon to be born Isaac.

Further scrutiny requires that we quote the full passage in surah 37:

ISHMAEL spoken of here by default because further down Abraham is told that Isaac will be born to Him. The first son isn't named but it wasn't Isaac so it had to be Ishmael.


ABRAHAM ASKS GOD FOR A SON then is asked to sacrifice him

99. He said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!
100. "O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!"
101. So We gave him the good news of a forbearing son.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I have seen in a vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills, one of the steadfast!"
103. So when they had both submitted (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),

God Rewards Abraham's sacrifice

104. We called out to him "O Abraham! ...
105. "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106. For this was a clear trial-
107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108. And We left for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109. "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
111. For he was one of Our believing Servants.

GOD GIVES ABRAHAM ISAAC

112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
113. We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to themselves.

You see then that Abraham offered His only son BEFORE Isaac was born and that is clearly Ishmael. The Quran also clears up the contradiction in the Bible verse where Isaac is mentioned but 'only son' is mentioned too and it is not possible that Abraham sacrificed Isaac as he hadnt been born yet and Isaac was never Abraham's first or only son at any time. Ishmael was.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes of course. But when you are saying we are taking things out of context you need to explain which context and prove that the context as you understand it is the correct context.

Over 40,000 sects of Christianity can't agree on the Bible so who has the right context? They all say they they have the right context yet they contradict one another so which of the 40,000 contexts is the right one?

At least with Baha'is we all agree on one and the same context all over the world.

Actually, Lover, on this thread alone @adrian009 and @arthra have totally different views of Bahai than you do. @InvestigateTruth and @Tony Bristow-Stagg have different views than you do. It's not the same views with a different name. You guys really do believe differently.

All Christians believe in christ, christ's redemption, and eternal life. That's the crux of the christian faith. Whether one believes we are only tempted to sin and the other has inherited sin doesn't change that both believe, we sin. Just because one follows The Church and the other follows sola scripture does not mean that The Church bypass scripture (its based on it) and sola scripturians don't get together as a body (say study group). It's the same. All christians believe in the sacraments. They believe that people need to be baptized-born again, words, water, whatever means. All believe in communion-door two door and study, mass, sermons, bible studies. All believe in confession-another word for repentance and asking god for forgiveness. All believe in heaven-on earth or above doesn't matter. All believe in the nature of god-which is all through scripture.

But on this thread alone, Bahai has christianism mixed in for some, Hinduism for another, some believe they are Hindu and Buddhist and Christian even because some of you feel the virtues are the same so the beliefs are at the core. Three of you guys do not believe people find god without the promised one. Two of you talk in your own words and another two or three bypass questions all together as done in many examples of Bahaullah not addressing greater world peace just offering his message.

You have to go beyond offering and lesser peace if you want to support your views so the rest will understand it. But some of you believe otherwise. Some of you agree.

It's the nature of humanity. We differ. Two of you understands this. The rest of you it seems you don't. That influences how you share your faith and what you want to read from our posts and what you want to skip.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
You're avoiding the question, as is common. So I'll repeat it in clearer languages. Do Baha'is think that homosexuality is just a fad that some people go through?

The offical view is this.

"Homosexuality, according to the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, is spiritually condemned. This does not mean that people so afflicted must not be helped and advised and sympathized with. It does mean that we do not believe that it is a permissible way of life; which, alas, is all too often the accepted attitude nowadays.

"We must struggle against the evils in society by spiritual means, and medical and social ones as well. We must be tolerant but uncompromising, understanding but immovable in our point of view. (Shoghi Effendi)

So we believe homosexuality can be cured.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The offical view is this.

"Homosexuality, according to the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, is spiritually condemned. This does not mean that people so afflicted must not be helped and advised and sympathized with. It does mean that we do not believe that it is a permissible way of life; which, alas, is all too often the accepted attitude nowadays.

"We must struggle against the evils in society by spiritual means, and medical and social ones as well. We must be tolerant but uncompromising, understanding but immovable in our point of view. (Shoghi Effendi)

So we believe homosexuality can be cured.

Q: That would mean those of us who have been homosexual as a child but never knew what the word was (or to me heard of it) and never lived the lifestyle as a teen cannot be Bahai because they view who we am as an illness that needs to be cured?

That's like trying to cure a person born with one leg because it is a sin for him to try to walk and he needs a prosthetic to be normal just like the rest of the two feet people.

Q: Also, what exactly are you curing?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Actually, Lover, on this thread alone @adrian009 and @arthra have totally different views of Bahai than you do. @InvestigateTruth and @Tony Bristow-Stagg have different views than you do. It's not the same views with a different name. You guys really do believe differently.

All Christians believe in christ, christ's redemption, and eternal life. That's the crux of the christian faith. Whether one believes we are only tempted to sin and the other has inherited sin doesn't change that both believe, we sin. Just because one follows The Church and the other follows sola scripture does not mean that The Church bypass scripture (its based on it) and sola scripturians don't get together as a body (say study group). It's the same. All christians believe in the sacraments. They believe that people need to be baptized-born again, words, water, whatever means. All believe in communion-door two door and study, mass, sermons, bible studies. All believe in confession-another word for repentance and asking god for forgiveness. All believe in heaven-on earth or above doesn't matter. All believe in the nature of god-which is all through scripture.

But on this thread alone, Bahai has christianism mixed in for some, Hinduism for another, some believe they are Hindu and Buddhist and Christian even because some of you feel the virtues are the same so the beliefs are at the core. Three of you guys do not believe people find god without the promised one. Two of you talk in your own words and another two or three bypass questions all together as done in many examples of Bahaullah not addressing greater world peace just offering his message.

You have to go beyond offering and lesser peace if you want to support your views so the rest will understand it. But some of you believe otherwise. Some of you agree.

It's the nature of humanity. We differ. Two of you understands this. The rest of you it seems you don't. That influences how you share your faith and what you want to read from our posts and what you want to skip.


Yes we're all different and plenty imperfect. Please forgive us for not living up to your expectations. We try but often it's just not good enough. Please understand that we maybe not understanding you as well as you'd like and perhaps you are better in many ways and more intelligent than us.

But we try to be sincere and do our best even though it doesn't meet your satisfaction often. But I like you guys and I enjoy your company here a lot and look forward to our 'debates'.

I hope we can call ourselves 'friends' one day as I feel it would be lonely not having a good deep discussion or debate with you guys on this forum.

You are good company and I bet that if you were down under in Australia we would be up all night just talking about awesome spiritual things.

But regardless of the content I think you guys here are all awesome and see you as sort of friends. Maybe distant friends?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes we're all different and plenty imperfect. Please forgive us for not living up to your expectations. We try but often it's just not good enough. Please understand that we maybe not understanding you as well as you'd like and perhaps you are better in many ways and more intelligent than us.

To tell you honestly, I've never seen anyone as imperfect just growing. My overall expectation in life is to understand. It's not a religious thing. Has nothing to do with Bahai. It's purely medical and personal. With seizures, throughout your day, you lose blockage of time. You can't put things together (for me verbally that's why I like to write, draw, and paint) so you find ways to relate and in most cases rephrase for better understanding.

With religion, I do not agree nor believe any god/being exists. So, if you and I (and all people here) would like to discuss, we cannot think of ourselves (that's an argument) we think of others-that is a discussion. Debate just means you back up what you say with evidence.

Also, no, I don't feel you guys understand us at all. Some of you asked me more about myself but when I replied, it came back to Bahaullah rather than an interest in understanding my views. I can't read whole passages in bulk so I split it.

So, I do read all of your posts. I have extra time on my hands since I'm not in school this semester but I don't expect you guys to read my posts in full just get the major points, say at least one or two phrases relate to the posts so I know you at least read it, and after thousands of posts, maybe try to understand what I write rather than me questioning you guys on your beliefs and Bahaullah all the time.

But we try to be sincere and do our best even though it doesn't meet your satisfaction often. But I like you guys and I enjoy your company here a lot and look forward to our 'debates'.

The reason is it isn't about you. When you bring humanity together in greater peace, it is about us. Therefore, there needs to be an exchange of information. So if my peace is war and yours is love, there is no walking away. If peace is your goal, it starts here not globally. That's unrealistic.

I hope we can call ourselves 'friends' one day as I feel it would be lonely not having a good deep discussion or debate with you guys on this forum.

Actually, I only have two friends and only one talks to me. The other we differ because her faith makes her bias to who I am as a person. My other friend just stopped being my friend even though we known each other since high school.

You are good company and I bet that if you were down under in Australia we would be up all night just talking about awesome spiritual things.

Probably. I do better in person anyway. Probably go to a pub or something.

But regardless of the content I think you guys here are all awesome and see you as sort of friends. Maybe distant friends?

Thank you.

Gotta get to know me....
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Q: That would mean those of us who have been homosexual as a child but never knew what the word was (or to me heard of it) and never lived the lifestyle as a teen cannot be Bahai because they view who we am as an illness that needs to be cured?

That's like trying to cure a person born with one leg because it is a sin for him to try to walk and he needs a prosthetic to be normal just like the rest of the two feet people.

Q: Also, what exactly are you curing?

No that's not how the Faith works. Deliberate and flagrant immorality is the only thing frowned upon. For instance if a Muslim had 4 wives when he becomes a Baha'i he can keep them all and is not expected to divorce them.

If a born homosexual wants to become a Baha'i of course he would be welcomed but the trade off is to try and observe the Baha'i laws.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
To tell you honestly, I've never seen anyone as imperfect just growing. My overall expectation in life is to understand. It's not a religious thing. Has nothing to do with Bahai. It's purely medical and personal. With seizures, throughout your day, you lose blockage of time. You can't put things together (for me verbally that's why I like to write, draw, and paint) so you find ways to relate and in most cases rephrase for better understanding.

With religion, I do not agree nor believe any god/being exists. So, if you and I (and all people here) would like to discuss, we cannot think of ourselves (that's an argument) we think of others-that is a discussion. Debate just means you back up what you say with evidence.

Also, no, I don't feel you guys understand us at all. Some of you asked me more about myself but when I replied, it came back to Bahaullah rather than an interest in understanding my views. I can't read whole passages in bulk so I split it.

So, I do read all of your posts. I have extra time on my hands since I'm not in school this semester but I don't expect you guys to read my posts in full just get the major points, say at least one or two phrases relate to the posts so I know you at least read it, and after thousands of posts, maybe try to understand what I write rather than me questioning you guys on your beliefs and Bahaullah all the time.



The reason is it isn't about you. When you bring humanity together in greater peace, it is about us. Therefore, there needs to be an exchange of information. So if my peace is war and yours is love, there is no walking away. If peace is your goal, it starts here not globally. That's unrealistic.



Actually, I only have two friends and only one talks to me. The other we differ because her faith makes her bias to who I am as a person. My other friend just stopped being my friend even though we known each other since high school.



Probably. I do better in person anyway. Probably go to a pub or something.



Thank you.

Gotta get to know me....

I take medications for epilepsy each day. I used to have seizures very regularly then a doctor told me many years ago that when the temperature of my brain rose for instance after the flu or a cold that is what caused my seizures so he suggested a flu shot each year. I didnt give it much credence until I kept having seizures so I began to take to flu vaccine yearly and since then I've been free of seizures for 15 years.

But the last time I had one I was in a car and cracked 3 vertebrae and now have much difficulty walking and so much pain just standing but I'm happy and I enjoy speaking to you guys a lot. I know what it's like to have a seizure. I had one once crossing a busy road. It's terrifying to just lose all consciousness and wake up not knowing your own name. I don't know who I am when the doctor asks me and I just cry because I have no idea who I am. But that hasn't happened for many years so I feel a lot of love for those who have them.

I'm very sorry you are having so much problem with your health. I hope one day they are able to cure this curse because that's what it is.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
This is a huge problem with Hindu and Buddhist religions. It is a problem with some christians, who, unless going by denominations, see christ teachings beyond scripture.



Trinity means: The creator, his son, and the holy spirit are one person in nature (they are all divine). It is in scripture.

The nature of god:

“God is a Spirit.”—John 4:24.

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse

Nature of christ

2 Corinthians 5:21

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Christ/Holy Spirit nature

Luke 1:35

The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Nature of the Holy Spirit

Romans 8:2-6
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace

:leafwind:

Father: Creator
Son: Savior
Spirit: Life

When you believe you are a sinner in christianity, you feel you are in need of a savior. Because that savior is an intermediary to god. In order to go to god through this intermediary, the bible (above) describes this "agent" that creates union a spirit (holy is an adjective). The Spirit (life) of go (creator) through his son (divineness of humanity) gave life to humanity (became sin), to live and teach his father's words (the Law of Moses), to die (so that christians can die), and be resurrected (so christians can be resurrected)

but this cannot happen without the creator being, well, the creator. Without the son, who is the go-between. Without the spirit-what christians receive at pentecost (in Acts as well) in order to spread Christ's Word-which is his Father's Word not his own.

That is the trinity.

What you're talking about is mainstream interpretations. Your beliefs do not define christian beliefs. You are not christian. (Or Hindu or Muslim)

So you cannot debate the internal nature of christianity unless you understand what it means to be part of the body of christ beyond symbolism.

I do not believe that jesus is god. I do understand the trinity beyond how fundamentalist describe it. I've done my research, gone to Mass, experienced it, and been devoted to it. It is not by the book. Jesus even said that "people look to scriptures as if they hold eternal life. Even they testify to my behalf." (Mark 8:24)

Stop looking at scripture to find god.

See, none of the verses you quoted actually says that God, the Holy Spirit and the Son are One 'Person in Nature'.
It is your own conclusion. Not that those verses are saying it. Notice you are using the word 'Nature', and 'Person'. No where in the Scripture says the Nature of God is....., or Nature of Holy Spirit is so, and so. No where even says, Holy Spirit is a 'Person'. If it was a verse saying these, you could simply underline the word 'person', or 'Nature' in the verse.



Also, you should not change your position everytime. Sometimes you speak as if you are a Christian, and sometimes you say you do not believe in god. For the discussions you should be consistent.


So, looking at this as neutral, without considering our personal belief, I think it is fair that, we do not put words in the mouth of the Authors of the Bible. If the Authors of the Bible did not say, Holy Spirit is a Person, we should not put it their mouth, saying the Bible says, Holy Spirit is a Person, having same Nature of God, or Christ. If the Bible does not say, what is the Nature of God or Jesus, we should not say, Bible teaches the Nature of God.
How do we like it, if we wrote a book, and then people based on their personal desires, and understandings, attribute a bunch of sayings to out own book, which are not accurately in our book, and they insist on it?

In Bahai View, Scriptures are inspired by God, and they are required for true guidance.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The offical view is this.

"Homosexuality, according to the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, is spiritually condemned. This does not mean that people so afflicted must not be helped and advised and sympathized with. It does mean that we do not believe that it is a permissible way of life; which, alas, is all too often the accepted attitude nowadays.

"We must struggle against the evils in society by spiritual means, and medical and social ones as well. We must be tolerant but uncompromising, understanding but immovable in our point of view. (Shoghi Effendi)

So we believe homosexuality can be cured.

Yes, that is what I thought. Not the opinion of modern science, psychology, nor Hindus, nor progressive people on this planet.

I wonder how Baha'i' would do in this thread: American Muslims Are Now More Accepting Of Homosexuality Than White Evangelicals
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
No that's not how the Faith works. Deliberate and flagrant immorality is the only thing frowned upon. For instance if a Muslim had 4 wives when he becomes a Baha'i he can keep them all and is not expected to divorce them.

If a born homosexual wants to become a Baha'i of course he would be welcomed but the trade off is to try and observe the Baha'i laws.

What is the homosexual trading off (outside of not being able to love)?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I take medications for epilepsy each day. I used to have seizures very regularly then a doctor told me many years ago that when the temperature of my brain rose for instance after the flu or a cold that is what caused my seizures so he suggested a flu shot each year. I didnt give it much credence until I kept having seizures so I began to take to flu vaccine yearly and since then I've been free of seizures for 15 years.

Oh wow. I didn't know seizures can be triggered by the flu. That is new on me. I didn't know you had seizures. I used to have gran mals and complex (the big and somewhat big) seizures before my brain surgery. What's weird, even though I was physically off, I felt I was more mentally sound before surgery than after. Chronic depression hit after surgery and I don't think I've recovered. I lost my interests.

But now, I'm getting better. My eyes are coming back-the blurred vision one-and as long as I eat, I don't have serious double vision spells. Right now, I'm concentrating on adapting to what I can and cannot do. Using more audio with visual support in things like reading or going on the metro. Changing my apartment low level so I can ease myself down during a small seizure.

I'm actually grateful. If I called what I believed god, I'd be really grateful for just being alive, going to school, and just be me. I say thank you all the time and sometimes that's enough.

But the last time I had one I was in a car and cracked 3 vertebrae and now have much difficulty walking and so much pain just standing but I'm happy and I enjoy speaking to you guys a lot. I know what it's like to have a seizure. I had one once crossing a busy road. It's terrifying to just lose all consciousness and wake up not knowing your own name. I don't know who I am when the doctor asks me and I just cry because I have no idea who I am. But that hasn't happened for many years so I feel a lot of love for those who have them.

Exactly. What frustrates me nowadays is I'll talk and just stop in mid sentence. Literally, as if someone cut off the lights or something. If you asked my name just then, I wouldn't be able voice it none the less think it. I understand that. I'm hope you better from that car crash, though. That sounds terrible.

I'm very sorry you are having so much problem with your health. I hope one day they are able to cure this curse because that's what it is.

True. The older I'm getting, I just accept I'll be on meds and clueless the rest of my life. I told my doctor I don't know what it feels like to be healthy. I'm not that bad off now, but taking care of myself helps a lot. I appreciate it.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
See, none of the verses you quoted actually says that God, the Holy Spirit and the Son are One 'Person in Nature'.
It is your own conclusion. Not that those verses are saying it. Notice you are using the word 'Nature', and 'Person'. No where in the Scripture says the Nature of God is....., or Nature of Holy Spirit is so, and so. No where even says, Holy Spirit is a 'Person'. If it was a verse saying these, you could simply underline the word 'person', or 'Nature' in the verse.



Also, you should not change your position everytime. Sometimes you speak as if you are a Christian, and sometimes you say you do not believe in god. For the discussions you should be consistent.


So, looking at this as neutral, without considering our personal belief, I think it is fair that, we do not put words in the mouth of the Authors of the Bible. If the Authors of the Bible did not say, Holy Spirit is a Person, we should not put it their mouth, saying the Bible says, Holy Spirit is a Person, having same Nature of God, or Christ. If the Bible does not say, what is the Nature of God or Jesus, we should not say, Bible teaches the Nature of God.
How do we like it, if we wrote a book, and then people based on their personal desires, and understandings, attribute a bunch of sayings to out own book, which are not accurately in our book, and they insist on it?

In Bahai View, Scriptures are inspired by God, and they are required for true guidance.

Investigator, you have to read my original post and read again "I donnot believe in the trinity."

The creator is a spirit, is he not?

The son is the savior and perfect, is he not?

The holy spirit is love and christ spirit in the pentacaost in Acts is it not?

What do you think these two people and thing have in common?

That is what the trinity means. Three things in one. It is a very very simple concept. Read the first post, it is more detailed. You can read it separately all you like but the fact is god came first, sent his son second, the son rose and returned and left again to return later, the apostles got the (holy-adjective) spirit in acts, they went to different countires to spread the word, build the church, and go off from there.

It is simple.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
See, none of the verses you quoted actually says that God, the Holy Spirit and the Son are One 'Person in Nature'.

I didn't use Person with a capitol P. I said they each have the same nature. The creator is a Spirit. Christ is a human. The Holy Spirit is god's spirit that christians define as holy. Holy is an adjective for god's spirit.

There are two Spirits. One a being and the other "breathe."

The creator is the first. (God) The breathe of life is the second. (Holy Spirit)

All sons share the nature of their fathers (in humans, blood). Thereby as the bible says christ is perfect and god is perfect and by his birth and blessings from his father the spirit is perfect it shows they (Creator, Person, It) shares the same nature.

They are not all Persons. Reread my posts.

It is your own conclusion. Not that those verses are saying it. Notice you are using the word 'Nature', and 'Person'. No where in the Scripture says the Nature of God is....., or Nature of Holy Spirit is so, and so. No where even says, Holy Spirit is a 'Person'. If it was a verse saying these, you could simply underline the word 'person', or 'Nature' in the verse.

You are sola scriptura. If the bible is symbolism, what you're doing is a total contradiction in terms.

Creator is Spirit; the breathe of life in Adam is termed as Spirit; Christ has a spirit but he humanity is human. People call this Persons of the trinity.

Again. I do not believe in the trinity (mainstream: All three are one Person)

I read that they all share the same nature. Very different meaning altogether. Unless you are trinitarian, I honestly don't see how you miss the divinity of the creator, christ, and holy spirit and at the same time say you believe in scripture. :shrug::shrug:

Also, you should not change your position everytime. Sometimes you speak as if you are a Christian, and sometimes you say you do not believe in god. For the discussions you should be consistent.

Haha! Yeah, Adrian says that too. I am christian by sacrament. I don't go to Mass, so I'm not part of the body anymore.

I speak as if I am christian because I have experienced christianity and I have experienced scripture. When you have a profound experience, you can't just blot it out. It is personal. If you were talking about Buddhism, it would be less personal because I was not formally initiated as a Buddhist but within a sect that is not specifically related to Buddhism itself. I can kinda talk about Hinduism, I can rummage through my family practices of witchcraft (though not European).

but if you read my posts, you will know I have a passion for the Church and I hate for the interpretation of scripture (or gita or sutta or whatever scripture) to be misinterpreted because you believe in its words and I experienced the words.

I am not sola scriptura. Never was. Never will be. Call me christian if you like but I don't speak just from knowledge. I've studied scripture. I also speak from experience.

Don't invalidate my experiences because you personally feel they come from man and not from god.

So, looking at this as neutral, without considering our personal belief, I think it is fair that, we do not put words in the mouth of the Authors of the Bible. If the Authors of the Bible did not say, Holy Spirit is a Person, we should not put it their mouth, saying the Bible says, Holy Spirit is a Person, having same Nature of God, or Christ. If the Bible does not say, what is the Nature of God or Jesus, we should not say, Bible teaches the Nature of God.

The Bible (as quoted) says the Holy Spirit is the breathe of life. Holy is an adjective to describe the breathe god blown life into adam, the first person.

The Bible mentions christ and his spirit came down to talk to the apostles and reassure them he would return.

The bible talks about the creator. That cannot be disputed.

You're hung up on words.

How do we like it, if we wrote a book, and then people based on their personal desires, and understandings, attribute a bunch of sayings to out own book, which are not accurately in our book, and they insist on it?

Bahai does this with all the revealed faiths. That's why people are correcting you.

In Bahai View, Scriptures are inspired by God, and they are required for true guidance.

The problem is the revealed religions not your belief about greater and lesser peace.

Hindu god is different than your god. There is no god in Buddhism. Christianity (mainstream) sees christ as god. Everyone else sees christ having god's divinity but not the creator himself.

You believe in a totally different god with totally different values and goals.

What you believe is your personal opinion. Bahaullah has his opinions just as Christ.

Respect people's beliefs and you will find world peace.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
i don't enjoy battle of words , coz i don't have many...
i don't enjoy battle of wits , coz it burns me out.
i don't enjoy intellectual discussions either coz my eq is high.
i have a life where should i spend it ? on curiosity of finding truth?
and then following it?
to get ? something ..what? idk something good.
i want to solve problems of other people , i want to do good, OK son i will create bad so you can feel good about solving it.
thank you father for adding meaning to my life.




HERE IS A REFLECTION...

Heartache, Happiness,
Agony, Ecstasy,
Sorrow, Joy.
Loneliness, Reunion.
Darkness, Light.
Concealed, Revealed.
Opposites attract,
negatives highlight positives.
Pain brings happiness,
tribulation brings Joy.
Oh God may this life be full of negatives,
so we can learn to appreciate the positives.

Tony Bristow-Stagg B.E. 148

Regards Tony
 
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