How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Pleased there was something marginally positive about the whole experience. I do recall TB saying he ended up getting banned from every forum he participated in and I understand that's what happened with RF too. I haven't seen LH post here for the last month and know he had some health issues. Both LH and I certainly appreciated the opportunity to consider the nature of reality from differing perspectives. IT is still around.

What I have found is that it is just in the way the Baha'i deliver the message, enthusiastically as many tend to do. On the ground where actions become the words all speak, we all work together.

That is what I have found with many Faiths. The Jehovah Witnesses will always help those in need, but a stronger argument of Faith you will not find and I always welcome their commitment to faith.

For all of us life is a learning platform and each has to consider where they head in life, though many do not get that chance in this world where displacement has become large scale.

Peace for all.

In my personal experience, it's been very much an individual thing. My atheist father was in the midst of a liberal Christian community, but highly respected, as he would help out anyone. OTOH, I've seen people from almost any faith be total selfish morons, to put it mildly. So, for me, it's about the individual. The Bahai on here vary widely in respect shown towards others, or listening skills. It varies from downright rude to respectful. Same for my experience with JWs. But you're free to make sweeping generalisations, if that's been YOUR experience.

That Bahai enthusiasm you speak of is just proselytising, which I abhor, as you found out, and is against the forum rules, thank goodness.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That Bahai enthusiasm you speak of is just proselytising, which I abhor, as you found out, and is against the forum rules, thank goodness.

That was an interesting statement, to me that becomes our test in life, as to how to handle this in open forum discussions.

In my journey I have found most of the negative thoughts and issues started with my own self, my own reactions and my own comments.

On a open general forum one could never use the word proselytising in my opinion. We are here by our choice and know many will have strong opinions.

In the end we all miss out if a discussion turns to an argument.

May peace always be with you.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I hope not.... It wasnt that bad.

Also, yeah, health does have a way to slow things up. Hope LH is doing well.

I would hope not lol. I think if the Baha'is participating were all maniacal, myopic, proselytising fundamentalists the discussion wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as it did.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I would hope not lol. I think if the Baha'is participating were all maniacal, myopic, proselytising fundamentalists the discussion wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as it did.

Haha. You know, good point!

 

[Vinayaka]

On a open general forum one could never use the word proselytising in my opinion. We are here by our choice and know many will have strong opinions.

You have the right to your opinion, but when a forum says proselytizing is against the rules, and a person continues to proselytize despite many warnings by the moderating team, then banning happens. Failure to adjust to the rules of a forum often has that consequence. Most of us are quite capable of adjusting to such rules.

Since you're new here, perhaps you haven't yet experienced someone coming on and doing nothing more than preaching at everyone, with little or no personal discussion, just quoting from their scripture repeatedly. In many places it's just called spam.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You have the right to your opinion, but when a forum says proselytizing is against the rules, and a person continues to proselytize despite many warnings by the moderating team, then banning happens. Failure to adjust to the rules of a forum often has that consequence. Most of us are quite capable of adjusting to such rules.

Since you're new here, perhaps you haven't yet experienced someone coming on and doing nothing more than preaching at everyone, with little or no personal discussion, just quoting from their scripture repeatedly. In many places it's just called spam.

I would see a thread in a debate forum concerning religion will have a lot of quotes with Scripture, if one has scripture in support. Is not the purpose of a debate to show the merit of ones views?

Having a look over the last couple of weeks, nearly all religious debate threads have numerous scriptures quoted. Using the criteria you have offered, they would all stand accused. In fact I see many people post strongly of their view.

So in that case, the people that get banned must be very extreme, or is it moderated another way?

Peace be upon you and all

 

[Vinayaka]

I would see a thread in a debate forum concerning religion will have a lot of quotes with Scripture, if one has scripture in support. Is not the purpose of a debate to show the merit of ones views?

Having a look over the last couple of weeks, nearly all religious debate threads have numerous scriptures quoted. Using the criteria you have offered, they would all stand accused. In fact I see many people post strongly of their view.

So in that case, the people that get banned must be very extreme, or is it moderated another way?

Peace be upon you and all

It's only when there are only quotes, and no(or very little) personal discussion or commentary occurs, where problems occur. This forum simply isn't about cut and paste. thank goodness. Anyone can cut and paste. So far you haven't been doing that at all, but others did, so steps were taken. If a person wants to read another scripture form another religion, it's free somewhere on line. Nobody needs it shoved in front of them without asking to see it.

After all this is a DISCUSSION forum, not a share religions, talk right past each other forum. I do hope you're learning that.

It is very difficult to get banned from this forum, so yes, it has been extreme for those who have. If it was easy, I would have been banned years ago. But that's what makes it such a great forum ... open to all. As you may know, not all forums are like that.

Editted: I should add that sometimes the 'debate' forums are used sneakily as a place where you can proselytize, making it sound like a debate, when it really isn't. Mods have tougher decisions than, as they have to read minds, and intent.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's only when there are only quotes, and no(or very little) personal discussion or commentary occurs, where problems occur. This forum simply isn't about cut and paste. thank goodness. Anyone can cut and paste. So far you haven't been doing that at all, but others did, so steps were taken. If a person wants to read another scripture form another religion, it's free somewhere on line. Nobody needs it shoved in front of them without asking to see it.

After all this is a DISCUSSION forum, not a share religions, talk right past each other forum. I do hope you're learning that.

It is very difficult to get banned from this forum, so yes, it has been extreme for those who have. If it was easy, I would have been banned years ago. But that's what makes it such a great forum ... open to all. As you may know, not all forums are like that.

Editted: I should add that sometimes the 'debate' forums are used sneakily as a place where you can proselytize, making it sound like a debate, when it really isn't. Mods have tougher decisions than, as they have to read minds, and intent.

Thanks for that and in the end we all view life differently, but I seen the need to be united with these differences.

I am ok with scripture posts, if people use them in support, or even in entirety, as I also get to read it and give my idea upon it. In fact many people use scripture thinking it supports a view and many times it can be shown it can be thought about in a different way.

Peace be with you.

 

[ChanaR]

Portrait (He Knew) Band: Kansas Composers: Kerry Livgren and Steve Walsh

He had a thousand ideas, you might have heard his name
He lived alone with his vision
Not looking for fortune or fame
Never said too much to speak of
He was off on another plane
The words that he said were a mystery
Nobody's sure he was sane

But he knew, he knew more than me or you
No one could see his view, Oh where was he going to
He was in search of an answer
The nature of what we are
He was trying to do it a new way
He was bright as a star
But nobody understood him
"His numbers are not the way"
He's lost in the deepest enigma
Which no one's unraveled today

But he knew, he knew more than me or you
No one could see his view, Oh where was he going to
And he tried, but before he could tell us he died
When he left us the people cried,
Oh where was he going to?

He had a different idea
A glimpse of the master plan
He could see into the future
A true visionary man
But there's something he never told us
It died when he went away
If only he could have been with us
No telling what he might say

But he knew, he knew more than me or you
No one could see his view
Oh, where was he going to
But he knew, you could tell by the picture he drew
It was totally something new,
Oh where was he going to?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Portrait (He Knew) Band: Kansas Composers: Kerry Livgren and Steve Walsh

He had a thousand ideas, you might have heard his name
He lived alone with his vision
Not looking for fortune or fame
Never said too much to speak of
He was off on another plane
The words that he said were a mystery
Nobody's sure he was sane

But he knew, he knew more than me or you
No one could see his view, Oh where was he going to
He was in search of an answer
The nature of what we are
He was trying to do it a new way
He was bright as a star
But nobody understood him
"His numbers are not the way"
He's lost in the deepest enigma
Which no one's unraveled today

But he knew, he knew more than me or you
No one could see his view, Oh where was he going to
And he tried, but before he could tell us he died
When he left us the people cried,
Oh where was he going to?

He had a different idea
A glimpse of the master plan
He could see into the future
A true visionary man
But there's something he never told us
It died when he went away
If only he could have been with us
No telling what he might say

But he knew, he knew more than me or you
No one could see his view
Oh, where was he going to
But he knew, you could tell by the picture he drew
It was totally something new,
Oh where was he going to?

Great

Peace be with you

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks for that and in the end we all view life differently, but I seen the need to be united with these differences.

I am ok with scripture posts, if people use them in support, or even in entirety, as I also get to read it and give my idea upon it. In fact many people use scripture thinking it supports a view and many times it can be shown it can be thought about in a different way.

Peace be with you.

United in a human way. We're in this together after all. But what the Baha'i want is uniformity, which, quite frankly, simply isn't going to happen.

 

[Trailblazer]

United in a human way. We're in this together after all. But what the Baha'i want is uniformity, which, quite frankly, simply isn't going to happen.

I do not see uniformity as the goal of the Bahai Faith, not according to Abdu'l-Baha:

“Consider the world of created beings, how varied and diverse they are in species, yet with one sole origin. All the differences that appear are those of outward form and colour. This diversity of type is apparent throughout the whole of nature.

Behold a beautiful garden full of flowers, shrubs, and trees. Each flower has a different charm, a peculiar beauty, its own delicious perfume and beautiful colour. The trees too, how varied are they in size, in growth, in foliage—and what different fruits they bear! Yet all these flowers, shrubs and trees spring from the self-same earth, the same sun shines upon them and the same clouds give them rain.....

Thus should it be among the children of men! The diversity in the human family should be the cause of love and harmony, as it is in music where many different notes blend together in the making of a perfect chord.....

Likewise, when you meet those whose opinions differ from your own, do not turn away your face from them. All are seeking truth, and there are many roads leading thereto. Truth has many aspects, but it remains always and forever one.

Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts.

Rather, search diligently for the truth and make all men your friends.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 51-53​

That is what I do, seek to make all men and women my friends. My best friends are atheists.

Those are excerpts.... For the whole chapter: BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Id define the terms like this:

Proselytizing: "Read for yourself, John 3:16 will tell you how to be saved"

Evangalizing: "Come read John 3:16 so you will be saved"

Debate: "John 3:16 is about the Truth of salvation; here is why"

Discussion: "John 3:1`6 is about salvation. Do the suttas teach something similar?"

Argument: "You wont be saved without readng john 3:16"

A few people people stayed with discusion; few in between.
Majority tried to debate
A few pro* the whole time
Others argued passive aggressively

 

[Vinayaka]

Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts.

​

I'm not of hate either. But when everything is seen and spoken of through the Bahai lens, it simply doesn't recognise the true differences. I got into the other thread originally, just to correct, from the Hindu POV, the misleading information that my Baha'i friends kept making about my faith. I made some progress with one individual (Adrian) but that was it. When the Bahai distort all the other religions to suit their own agenda, it simply brings us all back to the old adage 'Actions speak louder than words." But then i'm an outsider, quite capable and allowed to view it from all sides. I can read stuff from outside the Bahai' paradigm in order to get a much broader perspective.​

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not of hate either. But when everything is seen and spoken of through the Bahai lens, it simply doesn't recognise the true differences. I got into the other thread originally, just to correct, from the Hindu POV, the misleading information that my Baha'i friends kept making about my faith. I made some progress with one individual (Adrian) but that was it. When the Bahai distort all the other religions to suit their own agenda, it simply brings us all back to the old adage 'Actions speak louder than words." But then i'm an outsider, quite capable and allowed to view it from all sides. I can read stuff from outside the Bahai' paradigm in order to get a much broader perspective.

Obviously, not all Baha'is live up to the Baha'i teachings perfectly. I think it is okay if we point out how we disagree with certain doctrines of religions such as Christianity, because they cannot be true if the Bahai Faith is true, so this is just a point of disagreement. However, when it comes to the older Faiths such as Hinduism and Buddhism, I think that Baha'is should listen to and learn from their adherents, not try to make them "fit" with the Bahai Faith just so we can say all religions are one.

My best Baha'i friend has been taking a course on Buddhism and it is not from a Bahai point of view because there is no Bahai point of view on these older Faiths, although we believe that Buddha and Krishna were Manifestations of God. There is only a Bahai point of view about Christianity and Islam and to a lesser extent, Judaism, because these are the only Faiths that are mentioned in the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha.

 

[Vinayaka]

My best Baha'i friend has been taking a course on Buddhism and it is not from a Bahai point of view because there is no Bahai point of view on these older Faiths, although we believe that Buddha and Krishna were Manifestations of God.

And herein lies the contradiction. No point of view, yet you go on to say Krishna is a manifestation of God. If that's not a POV, or a belief, just exactly what is it? This is exactly the kind of Baha'i doublespeak i got so used to, lol. Adrian stopped saying that statement at all, as I believe he came to understand it was offensive to Hindus for two reasons, both opposing the actual Hindu view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

United in a human way. We're in this together after all. But what the Baha'i want is uniformity, which, quite frankly, simply isn't going to happen.

Great I am with you, I think I am Human on a journey to find what that really means.

From my experience uniformity is required in certain things, while a diversity in other things, is what makes this world a wonderful place. To acheive this on a worldy stage will take some effort. I see all what we have followed in the path is pointing us to a greater unity.

Each of us will need to consider how we will contribute to a world outlook.

Peace be uoon you and all.

 

[Trailblazer]

And herein lies the contradiction. No point of view, yet you go on to say Krishna is a manifestation of God. If that's not a POV, or a belief, just exactly what is it? This is exactly the kind of Baha'i doublespeak i got so used to, lol. Adrian stopped saying that statement at all, as I believe he came to understand it was offensive to Hindus for two reasons, both opposing the actual Hindu view.

I expected that you would say that about Krishna and that is why i mentioned it.

It really does not matter what Baha'is believe or what Hindus believe about that.... Logically speaking, there can only be one truth. Either Krishna was a Manifestation of God (Prophet, Messenger of God) or not.

What is the actual Hindi view? How can we know what the original Hindu religion taught unless we have authentic scriptures written by Krishna? I had a good Hindu friend on another forum who believed that Krishna was a Prophet of God. The same applies to the Buddha. I had a good Buddhist friend who believed Buddha revealed God. Some Buddhists believe in God yet we have others, probably most Buddhists, who do not believe in God. I think this opens up a virtual Pandora's Box.

Of course, I am biased because I believe that Baha'u'llah had the last word regarding God, but since He did not write about these older religions I do not have a set belief about them. It could have been that the Buddha did not speak of Himself as a Prophet of God because of where mankind was at in the stage of their spiritual evolution at that time, that they were not ready to hear that, and that the Buddha being a Great Teacher was more palatable. It could have been that Krishna spoke of "many gods" because of where mankind was at in the stage of their spiritual evolution at that time. Logically speaking, reality is whatever it is, so there is either one God or many gods. The many gods did not get together and become one God later, when Moses came along.

I think according to the Baha'i Faith, but I like to reason things out and think outside of the Baha'i Box. All Truth does not fit into one tiny little box.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not see uniformity as the goal of the Bahai Faith, not according to Abdu'l-Baha:

“Consider the world of created beings, how varied and diverse they are in species, yet with one sole origin. All the differences that appear are those of outward form and colour. This diversity of type is apparent throughout the whole of nature.

Behold a beautiful garden full of flowers, shrubs, and trees. Each flower has a different charm, a peculiar beauty, its own delicious perfume and beautiful colour. The trees too, how varied are they in size, in growth, in foliage—and what different fruits they bear! Yet all these flowers, shrubs and trees spring from the self-same earth, the same sun shines upon them and the same clouds give them rain.....

Thus should it be among the children of men! The diversity in the human family should be the cause of love and harmony, as it is in music where many different notes blend together in the making of a perfect chord.....

Likewise, when you meet those whose opinions differ from your own, do not turn away your face from them. All are seeking truth, and there are many roads leading thereto. Truth has many aspects, but it remains always and forever one.

Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts.

Rather, search diligently for the truth and make all men your friends.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 51-53​

That is what I do, seek to make all men and women my friends. My best friends are atheists.

Those are excerpts.... For the whole chapter: BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

I think Vinayaka just said this is what makes him angry with Baha'i

We have to learn to listen, I am not good at that as well!

Peace be upon you an all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think Vinayaka just said this is what makes him angry with Baha'i

We have to learn to listen, I am not good at that as well!

Peace be upon you an all.

This, honestly, was what the whole thread was about give or take. Endless circle.