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Featured How are these Great Beings explained?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    @adrian009 Hmm.

    I don't know it's because it's in threes and you cross reference that with Christianity. Here is good information on the Tripitaka.

    I'm not too attracted to Pure Land Buddhism. A lot of westerners (so I read) and those going into Buddhism western and easterner seem to be. Probably because of the one-person focus rather than polytheism in which there are many buddhas and bodhisattvas revered as emanations of The Buddha himself. Depends on the tradition really rather than age.
     
  3. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    More on visions and dreams from the Bible texts.

    Many of the major events in the Bible were either visions or dreams or portrayed through them such as the Virgin birth of Christ, the warning to the Magi not to return to Herod, the Transfiguration of Jesus, the sighting of Moses and Elias and God. Hearing voices and seeing Prophets and Transfiguration sand receiving warnings or information were often relayed through such visions and dreams where both voices were heard, conversations heard and visions seen but they were not in the real world but in the world of the dream and or vision.

    Dreams, visions.

    Joseph was told in a dream that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit


    Matthew 1:20,24 NIV

    But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.

    The Transfiguration was mentioned as a ‘vision’

    Matthew 17:1-3,5-6,9 KJV

    [1] And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, [2] And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. [3] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. [5] While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. [6] And when the disciples heard it , they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. [9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

    The Three Wise men were warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod thus saving Jesus life.

    Matthew 2:1,8,11-12 KJV

    [1] Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, [8] And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him , bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. [11] And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. [12] And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

    Joseph returned to Israel after fleeing to Egypt after receiving instructions in a dream from an angel. The angel spoke in the dream.

    Matthew 2:19-21 KJV

    [19] But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, [20] Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life. [21] And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.

    Birth of John the Baptist was told Zacharias by an angel in a ‘vision’.

    Luke 1:5,7,11-14,22 KJV

    [5] There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. [7] And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years. [11] And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. [12] And when Zacharias saw him , he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. [13] But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. [14] And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. [22] And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless.

    Taking just these examples alone into account, it is perfectly reasonable, rational and logical to conclude that the resurrection was also a vision.
     
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  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    What's reasonable is that it never happened. But that has nothing to do with how early Christians believed and what they taught. Jesus was not a vision and he was not a dream. They thought he had come back to life. If it didn't happen then it's the biggest lie ever. And atheists are more correct than Baha'is... It was nothing but a hoax and the New Testament is a fairy tale.
     
  5. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Whatever view one may have....
    The most important teaching of Jesus is love.
     
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  6. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    From a Baha'i point of view, which is also consistent with Biblical teachings, only the Religion of the true Messiah can last.
    Look at all those who claimed to be Messiah before and after Christ. None of them lasted. Only the religion of Jesus last, despite Jesus was crucified. This is the meaning of Resurrection of Christ, that, His Religion rose after He was crucified, and if Christ was not raised after His death, the Christian belief was false. But since He rose after death, His religion was true. So, if we understand the principle teachings of Bible, and we believe in it, we should not have problem to accept the spiritual meaning of resurrection. This Resurrection is more important, and is the real resurrection, not a physical resurrection. The Bible gives so much importance to Spirituality, instead of worldly things. It gives importance to Spiritual body, than natural body. Then it also tests us. If we understood the fundamental teaching of Bible, we realize that, the Resurrection of Christ must be interpreted spiritually. Then we recognize the Resurrection story was meant to be a test to separate those who believe in spirituality, and those who give importance to natural and worldly. But if we think, that if Jesus was not physically resurrected, then it is all lies, and Jesus was not real Messiah, and Son of God, then it means, we are giving importance to the natural body. In that case We would be a worldly person, and If we believe that Jesus rose Spiritually, meaning, His Religion rose, then this understanding is compatible with teachings of Bible. In another words, there are people who can accept Jesus to be the Messiah, if He physically rose. But the Baha'i view is, He was the Son, and the Messiah, while He did not physically rose, because, what matters is, Jesus rose spiritually, and that is the divine proof!
     
    #16786 InvestigateTruth, Jan 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Let me ask. Christianity is both a physical and spiritual religion. For example, when Jesus literally raised the dead, his disciples asked him how did he raised the dead. Jesus said he did so by faith. If there was no physical dead, who did he raise in order to teach the lesson of faith from physical proof first?

    The other miracles of jesus were physical. Jesus continously got mad at his disciples because they thought the physical is what brings people to god the father (such as isolated rituals) and not faith in christ father who did the works: not christ. (Edit) He repeatidly used physical proof to explain spritual concepts such as faith.

    By saying that what christ did and the bible being symbolic is saying god does not have the ability to do physical miracles but by symbolism. Its decrediting god.

    You limiting god because what was performed back then has not been done today. While bahai belief sees symbolism to claim you believe in christianity, you must adopt the physical and literal ability for god to do anything beyond symbolism.

    Why are you limiting god to symbolism because of how you interpret whats in a book?

    What aboout your experience is real but a christian who sees the literal nature of god's work, make his experience symbolism as thats how you see it written?
     
  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    This is not being said in any way, shape or form.

    Christ demonstrated to His Disciples that God doeth as He Willeth and at the same time told the Disciples the physical is if no lasting importance. The flesh profits nothing.

    If Born again was Flesh, and the dead brought to life were born again, where are they? Do we write into scripture a 3rd death and a 4th life for them?

    Baha'u'llah also did the same, but the greatest of Miracles is the change of heart.

    Stay happy Carlita, Regards Tony
     
  9. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen "(1 Timothy 1:17)

    “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:24)


    When Bible teaches God is an invisible Spirit, how can it be said, God gives importance to physical as much as Spiritual?
     
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  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Youre not understanding what it means to summarize a conclusion based for clarification and understanding. Instead of looking at it negative, ask for clarification.

    My comment was an indirect way of summarizing what I Personally got from what is said WITHOUT putting words in his mouth.

    Its English. Has nothing to do with what he actually said.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Because with these verses and all others there is a physical component to warrent spiritual understanding.

    Good example: You dont need the bible, bahaullah, nor prayers for something spiritual, right?

    You can go without these things and still be bahai?

    Maybe its the miracles thats throwing you off? My question is, isnt that limiting god by saying he can only teach by symbolism only rather than both physical (real christ) and spiritual (love) going together?
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    @InvestigateTruth

    Timothy Charged to Oppose False Teachers

    3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

    8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

    The Lord’s Grace to Paul

    12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. 13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

    15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    -
    Its the physical paul's testimony of his conversion. If paul didnt exist as an example of spiritual testimony, whose sayimg the scripture you posted?

    John scripture

    Jesus is proclaiming spiritual truths by physical miracles. Be said at another time that people didnt believe just because they heard it. He said to his disciples people need to see. Once they have seen (and reminded at the pentecost; speaking in tongues etc) in Acts people were told that they didnt need physical anymore because they have the holy spirit confirmation.

    It is not wrong to have it. You have rituals too. Most religions do. Its not a salvational issue.
     
    #16792 Unveiled Artist, Jan 3, 2018
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  13. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    No one is a Baha'i or of any Faith without the Messenger, who is the Message.

    That is the Great Beings. They are the Physical component, given of God.

    Regards Tony
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Now you agree with what Im saying to Investigator then?
     
  15. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    We were talking about physical resurrection. Question is If having a physical body is important, why God the Father does not have one for himself?
    When God wants to speak to humanity, He must manifest a Person among people in a physical form to speak to us. For example He manifested Moses, or Jesus. But when His mission is finished, and He dies, why would it be important to be resurrected physically to live in Heaven?
    Such a thing contradicts Bible:


    Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again.” Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

    Obviously according to these verses, God gives more importance to Spirituality, does not He?
     
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  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    If you atre saying we Need God, His Messenger and His Word in our Prayer, then Yes.

    If you are saying we can have any one of those components and have Spirituality, then no, they are the Fullness of our Spirituality.

    If we only have God, we Have only our vain imaginings.

    If we only have the Messenger we are a Lover of Names and not the Source.

    If we only have the Word then we lack the Spirit.

    Prayer without the full path will get lost in self.

    Sorry I will remove myself from your conversation with Investigate. It was an unwarrented distraction.

    Regards Tony
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    However you phrase it and what physical things you use, its still a part of your spiritually and vis versa.

    Same as christians and physical reserection.
     
  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    No Carlita, it is not the same as this Doctrine.

    If we see Christ Resurected in Muhammad, in fact Christ Resurected in all past and all Future Manifestations (Great Beings), then yes we have both a physical and a spiritual understanding.

    Regards Tony
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    That is why bahai and christianity are not the same.

    Physical ressurection to a christian is just as literal and important as bahalluah to you.
     
  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    You have shown how the Understanding of men is not compatiable with Scripture, not that Scripture is incompatible with a Spiritual Resurrection.

    I believe in Christ, He is my Lord and Saviour, Christ is Baha'u'llah returned as the Father.

    They both are resurected and are at the Right of God just as seen in Acts 7:55

    "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,"

    Regards Tony
     
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