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How are these Great Beings explained?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The researcher clainmed to be a translator.
Most of the Bab's Surahs and Bayan are only available in Persian and Arabic. There are more available in French than in English, I have read.
And so I will be taking interest in this for a time, but needing to read the opinions of translators. bviously there won't be much point in quoting many of them to Bahais, because I get the impression that only Bahai approved translations would be acceptable to Bahais. But there are other researchers here as well............

It has been alleged that Baha'u'llah broke Babi law in regards to marriage, yet no translated verses have been provided to support this statement.

A further statement has been made in regards to what a researcher allegedly said but no citation has been provided.

Baha'u'llah acted in accordance with the customs and laws of Islam in regards to marriage in having three wives. Any laws the Bab wrote in the Bayan in regards marriage were conditional on Baha'u'llah for their enactment. The laws of Islam in regard to marriage have been gradually superseded for Baha'is by Baha'u'llah's laws as stated in the Kitab-i-Aqdas written long after His marriages.

Therefore it is proved that Baha'u'llah broke no law in regards to His marriages.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Only if you're a Baha'i and believe that. Not applicable if you don't. In Dharmic faiths, the closer you get to God, the less you speak. There is no need. The contented happy smile of inner knowledge speaks volumes from the face of a sage.

That is exactly true. We are talking about beliefs and respecting diversity. We can not quantify the inner peace of the smiling sage nor the smiling Baha'i, but both validate Faith for each of us.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
...the closer you get to God, the less you speak. There is no need. The contented happy smile of inner knowledge speaks volumes from the face of a sage...

That is exactly true...

..."Bahá’u’lláh authored thousands of letters, tablets, and books that, if compiled, would constitute more than 100 volumes." - Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library

He must have been very discontented - and very far from God...
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Lost for words but these will do I think: o_O:facepalm::shrug:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness
1 Corinthians 1:23

In the Revelation of Baha'u'llah I see God's Unerring Guidance, while you see someone very human full of error and mistakes.

I could ask you what mistakes you see in Baha'u'llah's Revelation and I could refute them one by one, but I'm not sure either of us really want to play that game. If you do, go ahead.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
..."Bahá’u’lláh authored thousands of letters, tablets, and books that, if compiled, would constitute more than 100 volumes." - Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library

He must have been very discontented - and very far from God...
Yes, that was the insinuation. Around and around in intellectual circles of self-praise. I've seen it before with anyone who thinks they have something special, not realising the guy sitting next to them might too. It's the guy who tries to dominate at meetings, the guy who can't listen to other viewpoints, and the guy who gets upset when he doesn't get his own way. All talk, no action, as the saying goes.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Is that the view from your house? I'm on my way.

Not exactly but its all paradise here.

1-800x5331.jpg


Do you mind the colour orange?

2-800x516.jpg
 

siti

Well-Known Member
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness
1 Corinthians 1:23

In the Revelation of Baha'u'llah I see God's Unerring Guidance, while you see someone very human full of error and mistakes.

I could ask you what mistakes you see in Baha'u'llah's Revelation and I could refute them one by one, but I'm not sure either of us really want to play that game. If you do, go ahead.
That is entirely beside the point - you asserted that there was no doctrine of infallibility in the Baha'i faith and on the second challenge you proceeded to quote a doctrine of infallibility. Whether such a doctrine is true or not is an entirely different question and once again you are attempting to turn the tables by changing the question rather than answering it. You do your faith no favours with this kind of dishonesty.

The fact is there is a doctrine of infallibility in the Baha'i faith and you stated its essence in this quote:

"Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations."

So it is inconceivable to a Baha'i that Baha'u'llah could have been mistaken - so if he predicts the downfall of a king and the king lives a long time and dies a natural death he must have meant something else. Under those circumstances I agree - any attempt to identify specific errors would be met with the same kind of disingenuous prevarication that you have shown in attempting at one and the same time to both deny and defend the Baha'i doctrine of infallibility.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Friends? You know they think you're deceived and going straight to hell and saying that Baha'u'llah is a false prophet. So no, it's more than just a difference of opinion.

There is no reason Christians and Baha'is can not be close friends.

Christ and Baha'u'llah both taught to love all, love you enemies, see the good in people and not the bad, and treat others as you would have them treat you.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
That is entirely beside the point - you asserted that there was no doctrine of infallibility in the Baha'i faith and on the second challenge you proceeded to quote a doctrine of infallibility. Whether such a doctrine is true or not is an entirely different question and once again you are attempting to turn the tables by changing the question rather than answering it. You do your faith no favours with this kind of dishonesty.

The fact is there is a doctrine of infallibility in the Baha'i faith and you stated its essence in this quote:

"Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations."

So it is inconceivable to a Baha'i that Baha'u'llah could have been mistaken - so if he predicts the downfall of a king and the king lives a long time and dies a natural death he must have meant something else. Under those circumstances I agree - any attempt to identify specific errors would be met with the same kind of disingenuous prevarication that you have shown in attempting at one and the same time to both deny and defend the Baha'i doctrine of infallibility.

The doctrine of infallibility is Catholic language based on catechisms.

Doctrine - Wikipedia

Baha'is have a different paradigm where we look to the writings themselves and beyond that the authorised interpretations of Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi.

So based on the words of Baha'u'llah, it does seem reasonable to assume at least a degree of infallibility when a Manifestation of God is manifesting God.

So it is inconceivable to a Baha'i that Baha'u'llah could have been mistaken - so if he predicts the downfall of a king and the king lives a long time and dies a natural death he must have meant something else.

Would you provide me a specific example please.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
IT - this is a debate forum you don't get to send me away to do homework - if you make a claim you have to back it up with evidence.

You stated as evidence of the fulfillment of prophecy that Baha'u'llah said He was patient with the Kaiser. Now you either provide the reference for where Baha'u'llah said this or withdraw the point.

.
I had provided the quote already in my previous posts. Dear siti did you miss it?

This is at the end of Tablet of Bahaullah to the King of Berlin:

"Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect.
We have asked nothing from you. For the sake of God We, verily, exhort you, and will be patient as We have been patient in that which hath befallen Us at your hands, O concourse of kings!"

Here is the link:
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 49-63

In the Tablet Bahaullah is telling King of Berlin that He is exhorting the king, so he may do well, and walk in the right path, and be not like other wrongdoer kings, then He tells him farther that He will be patient, meaning He will be patient with the king, and therefor will not cease his life soon, but rather he is given enough time, so he may change his wrong way, and do well.
Now



.
Likewise, with the Queen's acceptance or at least non-rejection of Baha'u'llah's message - please either post actual evidence that the Queen even read Baha'u'llah's letter or admit that it is just a made up story to fit the idea of the Queen's supposed favour in the eyes of Baha'u'llah..
If I get some more time I will. I don't have any intention to convince you. My purpose in participation is to provide correct information when I can, and also through the debates learn new things I did not think perhaps before. It is strange that you do not want to search for info as well for yourself as a little homework my friend.

.
I don't see what relevance the Shah thing has but it is a fact that the Babis plotted to assassinate the Shah and it is entirely inappropriate to suggest that it was divine patience that thwarted the attempt on the Shah's life. Under the circumstances it is hardly surprising that the Shah was intolerant of Baha'u'llah who was, after all, the new head of the murderous sect that had attempted to kill him. It is also unsurprising that the Shah was eventually assassinated given that regicide was not exactly uncommon in Persia - he was in fact the ninth Shah to have been bumped off in two centuries. He was also the longest reigning monarch of the Qajar dynasty and the third longest reigning monarch in the entire history of Persia. So if Baha'u'llah was predicting a premature fall from power, he got that wrong too - he lasted longer than any ruler of Persia bar one (Tahmasp I) in 1500 years.
Dear siti, you did not understand what I meant by bringing up the subject of the King of Persia. Please read it again, and try to find the info for yourself, as my time is limited. If you did try but couldn't find, let me know, and I will find it for you.
With regards to the action of those few Bab'is trying to kill the king of Persia, you did not read from correct sources of history. Instead you have read those things that the enemies of Baha'is wrote, otherwise you should have known that, their action was not approved by Bahaullah. In fact eventually those who had imprisoned Bahaullah realized they made a mistake, and for that reason, they freed Bahaullah from the Prison of Ciyahchal in Tehran. Dear siti get your info from correct sources please, and look at the whole story, not just the part that serves your purpose which is rejecting Baha'i Faith.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Reports of the fighting, the sieges, the murders (which I have yet to study) , the attempted assassination all lead to the conclusion that the Babi religion caused much trouble.
Yes..... or No?

I provided links in regards to two episodes where Babis barricaded themselves in buildings for defensive purposes. The Babis were the ones under siege. One of the links provided the context and circumstances of the attempted assassination on the Shah. You didn't look at what I provided, told me it was 'fake news' and you weren't interested in what the Baha'is had to say about this. I can't see how we can progress a meaningful conversation for either of us. Can you?
 

siti

Well-Known Member
This is at the end of Tablet of Bahaullah to the King of Berlin:

"Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect.
We have asked nothing from you. For the sake of God We, verily, exhort you, and will be patient as We have been patient in that which hath befallen Us at your hands, O concourse of kings!"

Here is the link:
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 49-63
Thank you - I now have another problem though...how many letters did Baha'u'llah write to the Kaiser? And how many different versions are there in the Baha'i literature.

In any case, this final sentence - if it is actually addressing the King of Berlin (its actually in a new paragraph in the document you linked to and - by the last clause - addressed to "the concourse of kings" and not any one of them in particular...but anyway...

What Baha'u'llah's prophecy now says is that the Kaiser might be "brought down" mercilessly to the grave by the "All-merciful" or he might live somewhat longer and then die. Again, I think I could make predictions like that.

you did not understand what I meant by bringing up the subject of the King of Persia.
Yes I did - you were attempting to set up the Shah's long reign despite his opposition to Baha'u'llah and the Babis as a precedent example of divine patience to excuse the fact that Baha'u'llah's judgemental prophecy against the King of Berlin was not meted out precipitously.

So overall, Baha'u'llah prophesied that some Kings would die and - eventually - they all died - thereby proving that Baha'u'llah was blessed with divine prescience. I think that just about sums up your argument so far.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So overall, Baha'u'llah prophesied that some Kings would die and - eventually - they all died - thereby proving that Baha'u'llah was blessed with divine prescience. I think that just about sums up your argument so far.

I would offer all these things are to show us how the Knowledge of the Great Beings ties into this quote;

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements." Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213

Regards Tony
 

siti

Well-Known Member
I would offer all these things are to show us how the Knowledge of the Great Beings ties into this quote;

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements." Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213

Regards Tony
My God Tony! You are surpassing even IT and Adrian in superfluity and preposterousness...

...So now you are claiming that not only do we need a divine manifestation to tell us that a King will eventually die, but that this is such a new idea that it was entirely unknown until All-knowing physician revealed it through Baha'u'llah in the 1870s! How sadly ignorant and deluded our ancestors were 150 years ago! They had no concept of death.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
What's it called when you speak about yourself in second person? There was a funny Seinfeld episode on this.

Edited ... actually it's third person, and the idea is illeism
Illeism - Wikipedia

For those of us studying this from the psychological perspective, the wikipedia article is quite fascinating.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My God Tony! You are surpassing even IT and Adrian in superfluity and preposterousness...

...So now you are claiming that not only do we need a divine manifestation to tell us that a King will eventually die, but that this is such a new idea that it was entirely unknown until All-knowing physician revealed it through Baha'u'llah in the 1870s! How sadly ignorant and deluded our ancestors were 150 years ago! They had no concept of death.

That was so wrong a response to the quote that was provided.

I am talking about the whole unfolding of the world since the mid 1800's, not just one or two happenings.

The problem may be that I have had 30 years of reading what Baha'u'llah offered and see each day these words becomming more and more the elixer mankind is implementing. Wheras you may not see that, as you may not have read it all.

I actually have really no need to say much more than just that.

I wil keep being amazed and you can choose your level of participation in that aspect.

God indeed does have his finger on the pulse of mankind.

Regards Tony
 
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siti

Well-Known Member
So based on the words of Baha'u'llah, it does seem reasonable to assume at least a degree of infallibility when a Manifestation of God is manifesting God.
Oh it goes much further than that Tony - as you must know very well:

"And now, concerning the House of Justice which God hath ordained as the source of all good and freed from all error" - The Will and Testament of Abdul Baha p.14

So not only is Baha'u'llah incapable of making a mistake but so are Abdu'l Baha, Shogi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice...

...which is kind of good for my argument against the explicit fulfillment of supposed prophecies regarding the Kings of the earth and "divine patience" accorded on account of their responses because the infallible UHJ admits that there is no evidence to support the supposed responses of either Napoleon III or Queen Victoria to the Tablets addressed to them and no evidence that the messages addressed to the Kaiser, the Czar, Pope Pius IX or Emperor Franz Josef were ever delivered to them. And, on top of that, the only actual evidence that any of the tablets were actually delivered to any of them comes from Nabil and Shogi Effendi - both of whose testimonies are rendered doubtful by the UHJ's comments regarding the letter to the Pope and the response of Queen Victoria (see below).

Tablets to the Kings

They are, however, extremely careful not to directly contradict Baha'u'llah or Shogi Effendi...e.g.

In relation to Pope Pius IX, while Bahá'u'lláh is reported to have stated that the Epistles "reached their destination", there Is some question about whether this particular Tablet was actually delivered to the Pope, as suggested by the following extract from a letter dated 15 November 1947 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer:

It seems likely that Bahá'u'lláh's Tablet to the Pope was never delivered to him.
And...
Shoghi Effendi in "The Promised Day is Come", p. 65, states:

Queen Victoria, it is said, upon reading the Tablet revealed for her remarked: "If this is of God, it will endure; if not, it can do no harm."...
In response to a question addressed to Shoghi Effendi about Queen Victoria's reported statement, his secretary, in a letter dated 21 February 1942 written on his behalf, indicated that:

But as we have no written statement to this effect, we cannot be sure about it. We do not know where the original of this statement is. Bahá'u'lláh praised her acts, but she did not turn to Him.

All I can say is that you guys seem to have mastered the Guardian's art of speaking out of both sides of the mouth at the same time.
 
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