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Featured How are these Great Beings explained?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    Still dodging, Baha'is don't believe most of those changes. Why expect the Jews to believe them?
     
  2. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    I didn't expect the Jews to recognise Christ, God did. He knew they had the capacity to recognise Him and also that they wouldn't.

    That rejection happened early on as recorded in the gospels and long before some of the more controversial teachings to which you allude, crept in.
     
  3. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    But it's dead on accurate with prophecies that Baha'is use to point to 1844? So when did Daniel and Revelation get written and who wrote them? No controversies?
     
  4. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Daniel received his visions during the Babylonian exile period during the six century before Christ so much more recent than when Abraham was around. Daniel has been extensively studied by Christians in regards to timelines as events concern empires leading up to the Romans.

    Revelation was probably written around 100 years after the birth of Christ.

    I'm not aware of any controversies with those books, other than atheists who say prophecy is impossible and complete nonsense!:)
     
    #14544 Dawnofhope, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  5. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    No, there's one big one... "Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples." "Yeah, right... And you expect me to believe such a crazy story?" "But you must believe on Him to have your sins forgiven." "I don't think so. I make a sacrifice and repent as commanded by God. A man cannot forgive sins, only God."
     
  6. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    I was considering during Jesus's lifetime as the land the Jews occupied was hardly vast. The rejection of Jesus because He healed on the Sabbath is a pretty lame excuse for rejecting someone's spiritual credentials by most peoples standards.
     
  7. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    Daniel has a problem with the dating. Revelation with who wrote it. But Daniel has people thrown in a furnace and not being burned. So embellishments?

    But don't forget to comment on Revelation chapters 14 and beyond... Especially chapter 17.
     
  8. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 83-86
     
  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    For one thing, it was biased reporting. The Pharisses were made to look guilty and to be the ones rejecting him. But do Baha'is believe the healings really happened? Since some included bringing people back to life.

    Another thing is that the gospels were written way later. So who knows what really happened during his lifetime. But the Jews that came later heard stories about a man who walked on water and rose from the dead. Why should those Jews have left Judaism to follow such beliefs?
     
  10. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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  11. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    What exactly is your point here? I don't see your answer as relating to my comment. A true mystic would have stayed in the mountains, but since he was a social reformer, he couldn't. Besides, for may people who do have any realisation at all, the very first ego-based inkling is to go and tell everybody all about it. He mat well have just been regurgitating what the Sufi mystics shared with him.
     
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  12. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    You and I can place a side bet next time. We can't invite any Baha'is cause they don't gamble.
     
    #14552 Vinayaka, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
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  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Mind as well end the debate. If you dont see the validity of scripture by those who practice it, how will you know Krishna is incarnate when Hinduism isnt a scripture based faith?

    How can you be convinced Krisha is incarnate when you dont practice the faith to give you the experience without needing anything written to justify your faith?

    Foregone conclusion. Kinda asking for proof and putting whatever Hindu say by criteria of bahai and not Hindu.
     
  14. SSBGoku

    SSBGoku Member

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    Composed AFTER the letters of Paul, Mark and Matthew were INTENDED as symbolic fiction, being written in a symbolic chiastic structure.

    Only with Luke-Acts did Christians start to view the four Gospels literally.

    The sayings of Jesus in the Gospels are things Paul originally said. See Nikolaus Walter's ‘Paul and the Early Christian Jesus-Tradition’.

    The events in Mark and Matthew are based on the LXX, directly borrowing its language:

    The Donkey(s) - Jesus riding on a donkey is from Zechariah 9.

    Mark has Jesus sit on a young donkey that he had his disciples fetch for him (Mark 11.1-10).

    Matthew changes the story so the disciples instead fetch TWO donkeys, not only the young donkey of Mark but also his mother. Jesus rides into Jerusalem on both donkeys at the same time (Matthew 21.1-9). Matthew wanted the story to better match the literal reading of Zechariah 9.9. Matthew even actually quotes part of Zech. 9.9.

    The Sermon on the Mount - The Sermon of the Mount relies extensively on the Greek text of Deuteronomy and Leviticus especially, and in key places on other texts. For example, the section on turning the other cheek and other aspects of legal pacifism (Mt. 5.38-42) has been redacted from the Greek text of Isaiah 50.6-9.

    The clearing of the temple - The cleansing of the temple as a fictional scene has its primary inspiration from an ancient faulty translation of Zech. 14.21 which changed 'Canaanites' to 'traders'.

    When Jesus clears the temple he quotes Jer. 7.11 (in Mk 11.17). Jeremiah and Jesus both enter the temple (Jer. 7.1-2; Mk 11.15), make the same accusation against the corruption of the temple cult (Jeremiah quoting a revelation from the Lord, Jesus quoting Jeremiah), and predict the destruction of the temple (Jer. 7.12-14; Mk 14.57-58; 15.29).

    The Crucifixion - The whole concept of a crucifixion of God’s chosen one arranged and witnessed by Jews comes from Psalm 22.16, where ‘the synagogue of the wicked has surrounded me and pierced my hands and feet’. The casting of lots is Psalm 22.18. The people who blasphemed Jesus while shaking their heads is Psalm 22.7-8. The line ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ is Psalm 22.1.

    The Resurrection - Jesus was known as the ‘firstfruits’ of the resurrection that would occur to all believers (1 Cor. 15.20-23). The Torah commands that the Day of Firstfruits take place the day after the first Sabbath following the Passover (Lev. 23.5, 10-11). In other words, on a Sunday. Mark has Jesus rise on Sunday, the firstftuits of the resurrected, symbolically on the very Day of Firstfruits itself.

    Barabbas - This is the Yom Kippur ceremony of Leviticus 16 and Mishnah tractate Yoma: two ‘identical’ goats were chosen each year, and one was released into the wild containing the sins of Israel (which was eventually killed by being pushed over a cliff), while the other’s blood was shed to atone for those sins. Barabbas means ‘Son of the Father’ in Aramaic, and we know Jesus was deliberately styled the ‘Son of the Father’ himself. So we have two sons of the father; one is released into the wild mob containing the sins of Israel (murder and rebellion), while the other is sacrificed so his blood may atone for the sins of Israel—the one who is released bears those sins literally; the other, figuratively. Adding weight to this conclusion is manuscript evidence that the story originally had the name ‘Jesus Barabbas’. Thus we really had two men called ‘Jesus Son of the Father’.

    Last Supper - This is derived from a LXX based passage in Paul's letters. Paul said he received the Last Supper info directly from Jesus himself, which indicates a dream. 1 Cor. 11:23 says "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread." Translations often use "betrayed", but in fact the word paradidomi means simply ‘hand over, deliver’. The notion derives from Isaiah 53.12, which in the Septuagint uses exactly the same word of the servant offered up to atone for everyone’s sins. Paul is adapting the Passover meal. Exodus 12.7-14 is much of the basis of Paul’s Eucharist account: the element of it all occurring ‘in the night’ (vv. 8, 12, using the same phrase in the Septuagint, en te nukti, that Paul employs), a ritual of ‘remembrance’ securing the performer’s salvation (vv. 13-14), the role of blood and flesh (including the staining of a cross with blood, an ancient door lintel forming a double cross), the breaking of bread, and the death of the firstborn—only Jesus reverses this last element: instead of the ritual saving its performers from the death of their firstborn, the death of God’s firstborn saves its performers from their own death. Jesus is thus imagined here as creating a new Passover ritual to replace the old one, which accomplishes for Christians what the Passover ritual accomplished for the Jews. There are connections with Psalm 119, where God’s ‘servant’ will remember God and his laws ‘in the night’ (119.49-56) as the wicked abuse him. The Gospels take Paul's wording and insert disciples of Jesus.

    Refs:

    (1) John Dominic Crossan, The Power of Parable: How Fiction by Jesus Became Fiction about Jesus (New York: HarperOne, 2012); (2) Randel Helms, Gospel Fictions (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 1988); (3) Dennis MacDonald, The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2000); (4) Thomas Thompson, The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David (New York: Basic Books, 2005); and (5) Thomas Brodie, The Birthing of the New Testament: The Intertextual Development of the New Testament Writings (Sheffield: Sheffield Phoenix Press, 2004).
     
    #14554 SSBGoku, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
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  15. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    Drats, Drats, Drats :eek::D I just can not read posts an not answer....WHY!!!!

    The answer to this is Logical .

    What did Krishna Say? What did He ask us to practice in our life. To be Faithful to Krishna, It is important you do not attribute a practice in life to Krishna, that Krishna did not teach.

    Then what did Baha'u'llah Say? What did He ask us to practice in our life?

    Now if what Krishna guided and asked us to do, is as Baha'u'llah guided and asked us to do, then a Baha'i will be living the life asked of by Krishna and a follower of Krishna would be living the life of what Baha'u'llah asked us to do.

    This is the importance of sourcing the original words of each Great Being.

    Otherwise it is man practicing what He has chosen to do and dishonestly using a Great Beings Name and Faith to do so. Imagine the Insult to all the Great Beings we offer, in doing this.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    According to the Quran Islam’s Dispensation was to last a thousand years.

    From the Heaven to the Earth He governeth all things: hereafter shall they come up to him on a day whose length shall be a thousand of such years as ye reckon.4
    (Surih XXXII, "Adoration", v. 4)

    Baha'u'llah: The Great Announcement of the Qur'an
     
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  17. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Bahá’í constructions usually take into account the climate and things such as earthquakes, floods and cyclones so some Houses of Worship are built in high areas and the Seat of the Universal House of Justice has been constructed to last a thousand years and be earthquake resistant.
     
  18. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I agree but many enjoy the temptations.
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    :eek::D Don't feel bad. I just had to comment and I wasn't even in the convo. :p

    Are you [honestly] serious?

    1. You have to practice to know.
    2. You have to practice to know.
    3. That would depend on how much I know about Krishna. Eastern faiths are not like Abrahamic faiths. In Buddhism, The Buddha told us to rely on the Dharma. Not the physical Dharma but the Practice. The Way. The Method.

    I don't know how you respect Hindu if you do not respect their worldview, how they interpret their faith, the validity of that interpretation, and experience of its validity.

    That is not respecting diversity at all.

    Also, according to Hindu practice (trick question) how do you be faithful to Krishna?​

    Us? What do you mean us?

    Bahaullah asked Bahai to practice one thing. Brahma whichever incarnation he takes on asks Hindus to practice another way. The Buddha asks his disciples to practice yet another way.

    Diversity.

    Us? Krishna doesn't guide me.

    How do you live a life of a Hindu when you're not Hindu? o_O (Virtues excluded)

    That is your belief. Diversity.

    It's diversity. If you don't respect "man" than how can he be apart of your unity?

    The Buddha, for example, taught to man. He was a man. Every teaching he has focuses on man. There is no negative connotation in this "revealed" faith when describing the practice and interpretations of man. That is why man has so many different lineages and sects of Buddhism that practice in different ways.

    He is not a great being. He's just a man.

    Krishna (generalizing) is not a great being. He is just god. Not the god of abraham. Two totally totally different gods.

    Let me ask, how does the god of abraham and Brahman relate to each other?
    (Ima try to remember these questions since I know you don't answer a lot of them so I just forget and bite my tongue in the process. :confused:)
     
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  20. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    Practice what? What Krishna suggested? What the Buddha Suggested? OR

    what Carlita attributes to them?

    How do you show me it was what the Buddha or Krishna told us to practice?

    Regards Tony
     
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