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How are these Great Beings explained?

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Let me know how that works out for you when the comet hits.

You got me there! Just as well they aren’t a regular event. But if there were comets posing a grave danger to earth don’t we have the missile defence systems that could be used to alter their course?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
We have life ridiculously easy in the West materially but not spiritually. /QUOTE]

Depends on the individual. If you have no self-control, can't stop desires, sure. But many spiritual people can totally ignore all those distractions. A person doesn't have to watch the news. It's not all that hard. With global thinking the way it is, it's easy to find spiritual company.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So it's changed from this:
'Birth control, however, when exercised in order to deliberately prevent the procreation of any children is against the spirit of the Law of Bahá’u’lláh, which defines the primary purpose of marriage to be the rearing of children and their spiritual training in the Cause. The Universal House of Justice will have to consider this issue and give its verdict upon it.'

"The Universal House of Justice feels that the time has not yet arrived for legislation on this matter, and that these instructions provide sufficient guidance for the friends for the time being.

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the British Isles, July 13, 1967)"
Good to know.

No, that guidance has not changed. Each beleiver must consider this in their life.

Regards Tony
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
That's quintessential frontal lobe dysfunction then.

I think it accounts for a lot of our misunderstanding when we first started talking to each other. I wondered if you had different meanings to the words I was using.

What is does mean though, is you will find it hard to see the allegory, metaphor, and symbolism in sacred writings.You will take the literal meaning, and leave it at that. The problem is, much of it isn't to be taken literally.

I think American Christian fundamentalism has a culture of taking scripture literally so its made it impossible for you to properly understand the Bible. No wonder you are turned off Christianity. The religion of your ancestors is impossible for you to properly understand. Baha'u'llah's writings won't be any easier either.

One huge reason I love Catholicism is because its a practice religion not a study one. I couldnt get through Revelationa well when I first read the bible through. Catholicism you live it. So what you call symbolism of the Eucharist I see literal because when everyone comes together it makes christ spirit (and I believe in spirits) present in communion. Blood meaning life made literal sense since we cant live without blood. Wine has symbolism to blood and life in other cultures I remeber reading. Another things about blood is say when two soilders fight, they fight "for blood." The celebration of a good battle with wine and bread. Its a reacurrant theme of the literal nature of peoples religious thought are tied to food.

Roman Catholicism, via the saints and theologist writings as well as pope writings in the encyclicals helped a lot with abstract words such as love and such. Unlike Othorodox, they did find ways to describe the Eucharist and transubsatiation. Now I understand it literally.

If god can do anything, why would a christian second guess jesus physical resurrection? That doesnt make sense.

I was turned from christianity because of lack of belief in god not the bible. I couldnt find anything positive in the bible, does not matter if its analogy or literal, that Id want to apply to my life. The negativity and black and white view is a huge turn off.

I honestly dont know how it works for everyone else. Anyone can interpret thou shall not kill or murder anyway they want but the issue is that life-taking is in scripture whether it beba lesson or literal. Sacrifice is in scripture. The message of death brings life is a total turn off. Catholic history doesnt help. Protestants likewise.

Its a negstive religion that many people have been drawned to for centuries. Its like watching the Romans kill prisoners in the pit and the townsman cheer them on in their criminals sin. Id think we were pass that.

Eastern traditions take on a different approach. The Buddha isnt an athiest nor agnostic so I didnt switch because of that. He promoted life. Why would I follow someone who died to save when I know in order to save someone you have to be alive to do it? How can someone be saved by someone who died over a thousand years ago?

Some things are literal. If not, why are they facts and why debate them as if they are real?

If its all symbolism, what are you really debating about?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Building the Baha'i' temples in lands all over the planet is a toe in the door. Sending 'pioneers' to far off lands is putting a toe in the door. All proselytizing faiths do it, some are more persistent than others.

Building on land you own, by the people that own it, is not even close to what you suggest. All that have achieved this had opened their doors and invited people in. Good on them.

No rude toe in the door needed.

Regards Tony
 

siti

Well-Known Member
"His simple education was no different from that given to other sons of the Persian nobility. Tutors came to His home to teach reading, writing, and Persian culture, just as they did for the other boys. Husayn-‘Ali learned to read the great Persian poets - 'Attar, Hafez, Rumi - as the other boys did, and to recite from the Koran, the holy book of Islam.
Indeed - he studied religion as a child and his writings show that he took those studies far more seriously than "the other boys" don't you think? That is precisely what his sister testified about his childhood and half of the argument I have been making so far.

He did not study science, for science was viewed with suspicion in nineteenth-century Persia, nor did He study philosophy or religion.
Say what? He learned to read the Qur'an, 'Attar and Rumi etc. but he didn't study 'religion'? More Baha'i double speak methinks.

Those were left to the mullas and mujtahids -- Muslim scholars who spent long years studying the teachings, laws, and traditions of Islam."
With whom he is known to have spent time - in his youth - 'discussing' the teachings, laws and traditions of Islam - presumably among other topics. The other half of my argument.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Indeed - he studied religion as a child and his writings show that he took those studies far more seriously than "the other boys" don't you think? That is precisely what his sister testified about his childhood and half of the argument I have been making so far.

Say what? He learned to read the Qur'an, 'Attar and Rumi etc. but he didn't study 'religion'? More Baha'i double speak methinks.

With whom he is known to have spent time - in his youth - 'discussing' the teachings, laws and traditions of Islam - presumably among other topics. The other half of my argument.

I guess it is up to you to find out what was required education to become a knowledgeable person in Arabic and Persian Language and Religious studies.

Baha'u'llah would have had what we see as basic school learning. (Which like the Bab, was not neccessary) This in no way explains His Innate Knowledge that could not be matched by the most learned and educated people that spent many years in deep study.

As Baha'u'llah has said, he did not attend their schools.

Regards Tony
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Dear @InvestigateTruth - I did try to make it easier earlier by using different colours - here it is again quoted exactly from your post with the bits that appear in the English translation* as direct quotations form "the Gospel" in red and Baha'u'llah's narrative in blue:

In another passage of the Gospel it is written: “And it came to pass that on a certain day the father of one of the disciples of Jesus had died.” That disciple reporting the death of his father unto Jesus, asked for leave to go and bury him. Whereupon, Jesus, that Essence of Detachment, answered and said: “Let the dead bury their dead.”

The point is - it is irrelevant to my argument whether or not the man's father had actually died (we could argue about that 'til the cows come home and there would be no conclusion - it is relevant that there is more than one option here - he might have already died, or he might not an there might be some other explanation for the disciple's lack of enthusiasm for taking up his calling by Jesus. The Bible does not say - Baha'u'llah claims it does say. It really is that simple and it is an error - even if the "Baha'i view" refuses to accept it.

* I am still awaiting @Sen McGlinn 's response on the reliability of the translation of this passage from Persian and whether it is reasonable to assume that Baha'u'llah really meant that first part to be a direct quote or not. I suspect it is reasonable to assume he did and that he made the same, reasonable assumption that you did (i.e. that the man's father had died) and inadvertently inserted an idea into a quote that is not explicitly in the Biblical account he was 'quoting'.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Say what? He learned to read the Qur'an, 'Attar and Rumi etc. but he didn't study 'religion'? More Baha'i double speak methinks.


This is more on that subject;

Schooling

As He grew up, Bahá'u'lláh desired no schooling. He received a little customary education at home, in riding, using a sword or gun, good manners, calligraphy, poetries, and the ability to read out the words of the Qur'an.

Despite a lack of education, Bahá'u'lláh shone forth in wisdom and ability, and all who knew Bahá'u'lláh were astonished. It was usual for them to say, that such a child will not live beyond maturity.

Letter
To His aunt, when still so young in years, the Child Bahá'u'lláh wrote this remarkable and most literate letter:-

"He is the Well-Beloved! God willing you are abiding restfully beneath the canopy of Divine mercy, and the tabernacle of His bounty. Although to outward seeming, I am little and cannot write, yet because this Illiterate One is clinging to the Divine Lote tree, He can read without knowledge and write without being taught. And this fact is clear and evident in the spiritual realm to those endowed with insight. Those who are outside have been, and still are, unaware of this mystery."

As a very young child he was aware of who he was.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
If one of your colleagues reported such a person, down the road, offering Divine remedies........ would you call the cops? :p
BTW, that's probably the scruffy tramp who just walked up the high street in my previous post! :p


OK, for Bahais, fair enough, but for the rest of the World we needed somebody who might have stopped us from making the place so dirty, hese recent centuries past.


But what else can we expect? Your healer has not got the World's prognosis right, really. Some of us perceive too many tenets that would just repeat the circle of humans being human, which can only lead to inhumanity. :shrug:
But didn't a Baha'i say that it's up to the leaders of the nations to bring about peace? Come on Doctor Baha'u'llah you fix it. Same with the economy.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But didn't a Baha'i say that it's up to the leaders of the nations to bring about peace? Come on Doctor Baha'u'llah you fix it. Same with the economy.

The Doctor administers the remedy, the body must heal itself. The body must accept the given remedy for that process to happen.

Regards Tony
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Letter
To His aunt, when still so young in years, the Child Bahá'u'lláh wrote this remarkable and most literate letter:-

"He is the Well-Beloved! God willing you are abiding restfully beneath the canopy of Divine mercy, and the tabernacle of His bounty. Although to outward seeming, I am little and cannot write, yet because this Illiterate One is clinging to the Divine Lote tree, He can read without knowledge and write without being taught. And this fact is clear and evident in the spiritual realm to those endowed with insight. Those who are outside have been, and still are, unaware of this mystery."

As a very young child he was aware of who he was.
What is the primary source for this letter? So far, I can only find references to an article written in 2008 by David Merrick.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Building on land you own, by the people that own it, is not even close to what you suggest.

Sure it is, but of course we both already knew we differ on the concept of proselytizing. Maybe Aup has actually been to the one in Delhi, and has a sense for it, but I doubt it.

No, that guidance has not changed. Each beleiver must consider this in their life.

So there are guidelines, but as Adrian said, they're not at all binding. Every Baha'i' is free to go against the guidelines if he/she so desires?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It is written that in the OT that there is a time and a season for everything.

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

Had the Jewish people listened to Christs advice they would have realised it was not the right time to be taking up arms against the Romans.

Jesus warned His diciples during the Olivet discourse recorded in the synoptic gospels about the coming tribulations, that the temple would be destroyed, and they should flea Judea. They did not heed His call, instead they believed in another who lead them to battle and defeat against the Romans.

The Jews believed in Satan and Shoel.

The trinity wouldn't become part of Christian doctrine until the fourth century.
So Jews should have disregarded all the beliefs that Jews and Baha'is consider wrong and have become Christians?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The Doctor administers the remedy, the body must heal itself. The body must accept the given remedy for that process to happen.

Said Doctor might be a quack. When my Dad was coming out of anesthesia, in that temporary deluded state, he was cursing out the 'horse doctor' who'd operated on him. So we never know.

I don't really mind the analogy, other than for the insinuation that we're all diseased, and need fixing. It's the Abrahamic view that we're all 'sinners', whereas in the dharmic view, at the core, we're all divine.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
That one is in the middle, philosophically. One other, also termed Brahman, is the primal Cause, beyond all form, time, and space. It's the innermost essence, even deeper than this one. Beyond words.

The other is in the other direction, termed the Primal Soul in English, portrayed as Nataraja in Saivism, the first Being, from which all other forms and beings are emanated.

And so Brahman, Siva and Nataraja are your three Great Beings? ...... Or the first of your Great Beings?

And do they have knowledge of, and interest in, you?
 
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